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Discussion in 'Fairmount / Spring Garden / Francisville' started by Tartan69, Apr 23, 2015.
I understand your point but It doesn't change mine
And I agree with you. Consolidation is necessary. But's just step one. When do we get to step 2 and fix what's left?
Fancy new projects are sexy and can funding. Maintenance? Feh. Ain't no one got time for that.
when you fix the city (same answer as parks). look at Clarke, $15 million for his stupid light poles which could have gone to playgrounds, parks, schools, etc.
Correct. The 'sexy, new' projects (even if they're ill-conceived and fugly) always win over basic maintenance.
Oooh shiny seems to get the mayors' attentions...
in fairness to the mayor, unlike Clarke's poles, his intent to fund parks and rec is exactly what we need. whether his proposal will achieve that effectively is more debatable
From what I've read, the "close this school down" crowd also have a rather dubious solution. From what I've read from Eldondre the logic seems to be that dispersing these kids to other schools in small groups of (10-100? cohorts will go to the same schools their friends do) will reduce the discipline problems we see, and they won't replicate at the new schools. I'm not sure that's how groups work.
We can all agree that a half enrolled school should be consolidated, but when S. Philly High was in the news, there were calls to "close the school". I kept wondering, where will those kids go (about 1,000 people)? And will they go on to create a drag wherever they end up? If we can't agree on the cause, we can never find the solution.
No but sometime trial and error is a good way to figure things out. Make some changes, if they don't work, make some different changes and so on.
I think the "close the school down" crowd was different, and had vastly different reasons for saying so than what Eldrondre is saying here. It's a very specific solution--close down an at least half empty school (draining resources PSD does not have) where there isn't the pressing need for a school.
But nice of you to conflate the reasoning here.
We aren't talking about cars here, we are talking about kids lives. They don't get this back.
As I said before, I think we can all agree on consolidating half-empty (half-full?) schools. But in post #172 Mixiboi said "On closing schools down and transferring kids to another one , see Germantown high for why that sucks for everyone."
'drondre responded "why do you think that's the case? Germantown was awful...the worst really"
Which lead me to believe that, in addition to consolidating schools, he was also a member of the "close failing schools movement", which is a thing. If I was wrong, I apologize.
To me, the question seems to boil down to do you really believe the problem students exist because of the school (and teachers unions), and merely transferring them will straighten them out (close the schools), or do you believe it’s the social conditions at home and in their neighborhoods that cause the problem? Obviously the way you answer the question will guide the solutions. But if we don’t know which problem we are trying to solve, our solutions are going to be lacking.
Sometimes, moving students can break up gangs.
Also, it is important to figure out which problems you are trying to solve.
Because the status quo is working so well for them?
Perhapa size matters. Big numbers might work for central but be a problem for schools like southern and Ben Franklin.
In any event, I wouldn't worry about it, status quo is more powerful which should make mixiboi happy
Doesn't make me happy, but as someone who went through the whole "Your schools gone oh well" I can't be as cold hearted as some of you.
Has anyone really advocated the status quo? Or is it easier to attack your "opponent" rather than refute their ideas?
what ideas? the idea that nothing should change because the school is a function of the environment in which the kids are brought up in? the liberal environment versus the conservative nature position is absolutely the status quo. and if it's 100 percent environment of their home life and obviously having the school in someone else's neighborhood isn't working, what is your proposed solution? please present your ideas. keep in mind that the school isn't full and the district does have constrained resources.
your post seems rather hypocritical considering it is exactly the same angle you took with the "close the schools crowd." it's easier to try to categorize people in with a group that you think will undermine their position than to refute their ideas.
you wouldn't serve your kid jelly doughnuts every morning for breakfast simply because they like it would you?
yes, you should take steps to mitigate whatever impact there might be within the constraints of the current budget. life is full of trade offs.
And this is why this debate is meaningless. Continue to be heartless and maybe one day realize this is why these schools will continue to suffer, be a problem, and stay open.
Damn it PhilaSpeaks(and eldondre) NOW I want Jelly Donuts...Its all your fault!!
Always the victims.
Just because people don’t support *your* ideas doesn’t mean they support the status quo. Part of the reason nothing gets done is because people try to belittle positions they don’t like into some cartoon-like strawman position. My position isn’t hypocritical because there is no status quo crowd, while if you google there is definitely a close the schools crowd (coming from the right- a position which you, to my knowledge, still don’t acknowledge whether you are a believer in or not). I couldn’t find any people on the left advocating a do nothing approach, so you obviously created a straw man to beat up. Lazy. Sad.
The reason why there are no easy solutions is because the problem is complex. Two-Four word slogans (close the schools, pull your pants up, build a wall, Muslim ban, repeal and replace) may fit nicely on bumper stickers, but fall apart under actual implementation.
Well, my first step in finding a solution would be getting people to agree on what the problem is. If it's 100% social/environmental you get one set of solutions. If it's the evil teacher's unions and the inanimate school buildings causing the problem, that leads to a completely different set of solutions. Not that anyone cares, but I would recommend schools determined by grades (B+ -A, C - B+, etc), with more resources for the lower performing students and vocational options.
But there also has to be a societal component that brings the Hillbillies and Inner City poor performing parents up to standard. Jobs that pay (buy-in), social integration/conflict resolution classes taught in schools (especially in the "C" and below schools), and mandatory service come to mind. A lot of adults have dropped out of society, and it’s reflected in their kids. Simply sending kids to other schools doesn’t solve their foundational problems. Though it does fit on a bumper sticker (easy answers usually do), is there any evidence that it works? Of course if socializing the drop outs was easy, it would have been done already.
more hypocritical yammering.
the problem at hand of course, is the behavioral problems from the kids at the school. the question is what can and should the district do? Is it a good use of resources to keep the school open if it isn't even fully utilized? would the district be better off splitting the cohort up, renovating the building, and using it for masterman? I'd say there is a pretty strong argument. not only is masterman falling apart and this school much newer, the number of seats offered by masterman could double. setting aside the building itself, when schools are half empty they still have to be maintained. fewer schools means more counselors per school, and other things of that nature.
jobs are not under the district's control. if it can be shown that conflict resolution classes make a difference, then that is under the district's control. mixiboi has pointed out that kids fight, if we accept that, then we can accept that schools with a larger number of kids who fight will have more fights. perhaps the education factory model is a poor fit for schools like these and its schools like masterman that get the factory treatment while schools like ben franklin get shrunk...and perhaps have more counselors per student than central and masterman.
what is it doing, really, to have schools that are not able to attract kids from their catchment or educate children from other catchments? what are you accomplishing?
perhaps you should take your own advice and focus on what works or could work rather than worrying about the political left or right. am I suppose to take away that you think I'm a trump supporter and that's why you are talking about building walls?
the debate is meaningless because you think with your heart rather than your head which is why the schools will continue to suffer, be a problem, and stay open. how many of the girls raped in Germantown HS's stairwells have the same fond memories of the school?
Derides emotional arguments... makes emotional argument.
Ideas you don't like to hear= "more hypocritical yammering." SMH. This discussion is too emotional/dissonant for you. I'll leave you alone.
no, it's just useless and seemingly overly emotional on your part. you have already flip flopped on the issue solely on the basis of what you think my overall position is. if you can stick to actual issues and logical discussion we can continue.
What have I flip flopped on? Believe it or not, my positions don't change based on what your position is or isn't. I don't care whether you supported Trump or not. That was a weird leap for you to make, and irrelevant to the discussion. Maybe you're projecting a bit there?
Your hand-waving away my opinion as "hypocritical yammering" as opposed to addressing anything I said leads me to believe *you're* not willing to have any logical discussion.