Yet another BSL Brawl - Spring Garden Station

Discussion in 'Fairmount / Spring Garden / Francisville' started by Tartan69, Apr 23, 2015.

  1. Tartan69

    Tartan69 Pawn in game of life

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2009
    Messages:
    4,486
    Likes Received:
    761
  2. eldondre

    eldondre Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2008
    Messages:
    22,966
    Likes Received:
    356
  3. Giavella Water

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2012
    Messages:
    1,182
    Likes Received:
    2
    Gee, ya think it's just the school?
     
  4. luchobucho

    luchobucho Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2009
    Messages:
    1,461
    Likes Received:
    3
    I mean, i don't blame you for feeling that way....but who the **** raises their kids to think that this is acceptable behavior?

    I don't think you would raise your kids to be so stupid and violent. Even the kids who didn't directly partake in the action were getting excited by the whole thing.

    Disgusting.
     
  5. mixiboi

    mixiboi Philly Remixed

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2009
    Messages:
    12,663
    Likes Received:
    317
    People love fights, hell we built sports and monuments around it.


    So you are surprised when hormonal teenagers are fighting? Must be a nice tiny world to live in.
     
  6. drewrob23

    drewrob23 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2009
    Messages:
    3,482
    Likes Received:
    85
    I just read a fb post where a mother was really upset that two 8th grade boys jumped a 6th grader. The problem isn't the schools or the locations. The problem is these idiot kids that assault other children and the parents who don't instill any values in their children. And that's if they're involved period.

    I can't let the actions of a small group of people dictate if I'll have kids or raise them in the city. There will always be stupid people around and moving to the burbs or Amish country won't insulate you. What we really need is swift action when this type of stuff happens and in some cases the book should be thrown at the children and their parents. It won't solve all the problems but it'll at least get the people off the street who don't know how to conduct themselves.
     
  7. Tartan69

    Tartan69 Pawn in game of life

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2009
    Messages:
    4,486
    Likes Received:
    761
    That's a terrible analogy. Sporting events have rules and are contained in an arena. Monuments are for wars which is another thing entirely. This is random violence in a public space, and I'm fed up with it constantly happening.

    FWIW I have known hundreds of hormonal teenagers that didn't do this stuff. Children raised in normal society don't do their fighting on subway platforms that endanger the public. Finding this acceptable is appalling to me.
     
    ZARK likes this.
  8. Tartan69

    Tartan69 Pawn in game of life

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2009
    Messages:
    4,486
    Likes Received:
    761
    The ratio of this occurring in the city vs country/suburbs is many orders of magnitude greater. And more violent.

    I can.
     
  9. drewrob23

    drewrob23 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2009
    Messages:
    3,482
    Likes Received:
    85
    You know good and well that the vast majority of people on this board were perfect angels as teenagers. So when they see inner city teens fighting, swearing and using drugs, it's too much for the senses.
     
  10. drewrob23

    drewrob23 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2009
    Messages:
    3,482
    Likes Received:
    85
    You're right. It's your family , so you can do what you please. Personally, I'd rather raise my children in the city so that they can be street smart and not develop the false sense of security that suburban people have.

    And if some of the threads on this board are any indication, the murdering classes are moving to the burbs. So the city just might be safer.
     
  11. eldondre

    eldondre Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2008
    Messages:
    22,966
    Likes Received:
    356
    there are three other schools nearby and yet this is the one that is causing the problems so yes, it is the school.[

    this doesn't appear to be random violence which I'd consider to be jumping someone arbitrarily, it appears to have stemmed from school. the kids are ben franklin all come different neighborhoods. last I saw it was only 1/3 full with nearly ALL of them coming from elsewhere. the lot was originally central, why should spring garden have to deal with this school? what is the purpose of a local public high school that attracts no local public kids? shut it down.
    http://6abc.com/news/students-brawl-on-septas-broad-street-line/676703/
     
    ZARK likes this.
  12. Tartan69

    Tartan69 Pawn in game of life

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2009
    Messages:
    4,486
    Likes Received:
    761
    I'm no stranger to any of those things. I wasn't raised in a sheltered environment. But I want better for my children, and at my age I don't have the time, patience, or energy to deal with crap like this.
     
  13. Tartan69

    Tartan69 Pawn in game of life

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2009
    Messages:
    4,486
    Likes Received:
    761
    Completely aside from the general issues I have with this situation, I do agree with eldondre that Ben Franklin HS is a huge issue in the neighborhood and should be shut down.
     
    eldondre likes this.
  14. drewrob23

    drewrob23 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2009
    Messages:
    3,482
    Likes Received:
    85
    I might be the only one thinking of this, but if Ben Franklin is so bad that the school should be closed, what happens to the students? Or is it, I don't care, as long as they are not in my neighborhood?
     
  15. Tartan69

    Tartan69 Pawn in game of life

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2009
    Messages:
    4,486
    Likes Received:
    761
    Sure I care, I'm not heartless. But it is not my problem or responsibility to figure out the ultimate solution, on two different levels:

    1. On a micro level, yes, I don't want this in my neighborhood if these are not neighborhood kids
    2. On a macro level, this is the job of the PSD administration to figure out and manage
     
  16. eldondre

    eldondre Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2008
    Messages:
    22,966
    Likes Received:
    356
    I never once saw anyone get their head stomped in any of the fights I witnessed.

    there is simply no point in paying to transport kids to a school that is mostly empty and terrible. there is no doubt a terrible school closer to their home which could use the resources the district is no longer wasting. it is a plus that the district could sell the land for good money to pay down debt.
     
  17. Cro Burnham

    Cro Burnham Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2012
    Messages:
    2,123
    Likes Received:
    293
    I see what Drewrob is saying, and I raise kids in the city with pretty much the same mentality as he has. But I also agree with you here.

    In fact, I don't think there would be a loss if that school shut down. It has had violence problems for decades. I know this personally, having gone to school right nearby as a kid and having watched troubles periodically spillover into the surrounding blocks after school. It's hard to imagine much in the way of academic learning has ever really gone on there. I imagine it serves primarily as a daytime babysitting facility / youth penal colony. Not a lot of sense it being in that location. Its basically just a neighborhood disruption.

    I feel bad for that kids that go there that want to learn, but the main obstacle to their learning is not that nearby residents don't like the school there. It's that it is filled with too many kids like these dopey subway brawlers. Bull**** like this on BSL has been going at least for 35 - 40 years. It's ridiculous that it just goes on and on with no solution in sight, us hearing the same old excuses, rationalizations, and explanations for the behavior that we heard when I was a kid.

    It's not unlike the Palestinian/Israeli conflict: generation after generation, no solutions, no progress, just the same old plaints and grievances over and over again, and a mediator class that lives parasitically off the conflict, purporting to address the root causes and attempting to resolve the problems but really with nothing to show for it, just talking BS over and over. It's really so frustrating and sad.

    After all is said and done, and recognizing there is a deep complexity in what's going on, I still sometimes catch myself pulling a Rodney King in my head: "can't we all just get along?" . . . is is really that complex for kids to be raised not to act like idiots?
     
  18. Titus

    Titus Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2009
    Messages:
    2,267
    Likes Received:
    195
    I quite agree with you. Still we can't just say it's bad parenting or something simple. The fact is these are still collectively "our kids" and we can't give them up as a complete loss or their problems will remain as our problems forever.

    As for the school shut the damn thing down.
     
  19. Tartan69

    Tartan69 Pawn in game of life

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2009
    Messages:
    4,486
    Likes Received:
    761
    I agree with this, although I think I've reached the point of frustration with the powers-that-be in terms of how they are addressing these kinds of problems. Their strategy and tactics are clearly ineffective, yet they keep making excuses and trying the same things over and over. Since nothing is changing, I plan to vote with my feet.
     
  20. mixiboi

    mixiboi Philly Remixed

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2009
    Messages:
    12,663
    Likes Received:
    317
    Hundreds is not even a good enough sample for a study(and its already skewed with limited data and historical biases), which there has been many done around violence in adolescences, there are so many factors, and it usually ISN'T random, like this wasn't random. This is a part of normal society like it or not, people DO fight despite their background, so many factors play into it, especially when dealing with the developing brains.

    We can throw every value out there, that doesn't change natural chemistry and culture.


    And of course its not acceptable. But that doesn't mean we condemned an entire group for a few to being "evil", if we did that, we would close ALL the schools because they all can't throw out the "bad eggs" and keep the "good ones".


    And do so, it is one of the things we as people still can do, this issue, especially the schools issue isn't going to be solved overnight. But your kids will still be safe here, its not like anyoen forcing you to put them in the bad schools, and hundreds of kids take public transportation EVERYDAY without issue.


    Running away from the issues is what caused things to get bad in the first place, I thought we where past that.....But I guess its still a underlying fear for years to come.
     
  21. Tartan69

    Tartan69 Pawn in game of life

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2009
    Messages:
    4,486
    Likes Received:
    761
    I only have so many years left on this earth...I'm not spending them trying to fix broken and dysfunctional communities. I understand why some people want to do this, and I applaud them. However at this point in my life I simply have other priorities.
     
  22. eldondre

    eldondre Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2008
    Messages:
    22,966
    Likes Received:
    356
    I thought we were past it as well but the fact this school is open says we're not past it. While I don't agree with your opinion that you can't raise children here I also don't agree with drew rob and mixiboi who seem to think this is somehow normal. Shut it down. I'm guess most of us were hormonal teens that didn't stomp anyone's head
     
  23. billy ross

    billy ross Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2008
    Messages:
    11,819
    Likes Received:
    178
    Plenty of decent folk came from underprivileged backgrounds (Bill Clinton, Newt Gingrich), and plenty of awful people came from privilege. Having grown up with nothing surrounded by lower middle class people, my mom taught us that the expectations for us were much higher than what our peers' parents expected of them. Basically we saw every day the harvest that drugs and indolence and consumption reaped, and it was extremely clear that that wasn't an option for us. Sort of an anti keep up with the Joneses. More like eff the lifestyle of the moronic Joneses. I don't believe that our experience was unique among hungry families who wanted better for their kids. When you're surrounded by people who are extremely limited by their dysfunction, even if your family has no resources, it's very easy to reject the 'values' which lead to that dysfunction. Even the smallest children figure that out quickly. We also had decent, humble, hardworking neighbors who lived below their means, with very simple lifestyles and outlooks on life. They were the ones to emulate, with hopefully a more 50,000 foot view of things than those decent souls had, though.

    I suspect that your story is similar, and that your desire is to impart that same hunger to the next generation. I firmly believe that when the parents compensate for the failures of the kids, it just facilitates and perpetuates the failures of the kids, and that isn't what I want for my kids or their peers. In a way it's just and healthy for kids to see the bitter harvest of misbehavior - which I suspect will be the case in this instance. I guess what I'm saying is that I'm sure that these miscreants have plenty of peers who will do just fine in life. They've seen the bitter harvest, and they want better.
     
    #23 billy ross, Apr 23, 2015
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2015
  24. billy ross

    billy ross Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2008
    Messages:
    11,819
    Likes Received:
    178
    Septa used to be only for people with no options. It was awful. Now middle and upper class people ride the el and the sub. The dirtbags are still there on Septa. But they're controlled by Septa's gung ho police department, and they're diluted by the new, middle class ridership. Therin lies the solution for the school district. Up your game, appeal to people with choices, and get the dirtbags under control.
     
  25. Speedbump

    Speedbump Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2009
    Messages:
    392
    Likes Received:
    6
    I agree with you here, but how do we get the dirtbags under control? They have too many reasons and enablers to keep and maintain them as chaotic dysfunctional dirtbags. This is a monumental problem. And we don't have the leaders to take us to a better place.:eekfacepalm:
     
  26. billy ross

    billy ross Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2008
    Messages:
    11,819
    Likes Received:
    178
    Interestingly, we're a society which has learned that violence solves problems. The British are giving us a hard time? Make them hurt so much that they let us go. The Indians are being difficult? Cowboys need to teach the Indians a lesson. The Bad South wants to break away? We need to clobber them so they rejoin the Union. The Spanish and Mexicans are horrible administrators? No problem, we'll just invade and take part of their empire and half of their country away from them. The Bad Germans and Japanese are being evil? No problem. We'll just bomb them back to the Stone Ages. Over and over again we've clobbered people and it's worked out great for us. Is it any wonder that we're an incredibly violent society? Our entire history is one of us getting violent and thereby fixing what's wrong with the world. Acting like violence in America is limited to minorities is ludicrous. It's in our DNA as a society. And I'm a proud American, although I do believe that we should have more Acela train sets than F-35s, especially since each of our 20 Acela train sets costs dramatically less than each of our 100, soon to be 200, F35s, and we're adding zero Acelas while we're doubling the number of F35s. Like I said, we're a staggeringly violent society.
     
    #26 billy ross, Apr 23, 2015
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2015
  27. rjj

    rjj Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2009
    Messages:
    573
    Likes Received:
    0
    Darwin had not considered a world where smart people have fewer babies, and dumb people have more.

    Sorry, but we cant legislate home and thats where the problem is.
     
  28. Hospitalitygirl

    Hospitalitygirl Resident Ornery Bitch

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2008
    Messages:
    16,040
    Likes Received:
    758
    Cruel but true.
     
  29. mixiboi

    mixiboi Philly Remixed

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2009
    Messages:
    12,663
    Likes Received:
    317

    It is normal, kids have been fighting after school since before any of us where born, that won't change as long as we are all free thinking individuals with our own emotional breakdowns.

    How we solve it has change, tho. Before it was boys will be boys and they just move along. Now its a "problem" and needs to be "stopped". Don't know how much that has to do with race and poverty, but that's another topic...


    To close the school down would do more harm then good. The whole school district is already in a state of disrepair and some wants charters schools, some want to fix those schools, either way the schools are in trouble.

    To close the school would put more kids in worst situations then to find simple solutions to the issue, and push an already fragile system to the breaking point.
     
  30. Tartan69

    Tartan69 Pawn in game of life

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2009
    Messages:
    4,486
    Likes Received:
    761
    Darwin could not have known that naive progressive ideology would provide incentives for dumb people to have more kids
     

Share This Page