Train derailment in Port Richmond - Now

Discussion in 'Fishtown / Northern Liberties / Kensington / Port ' started by Litter Box, May 12, 2015.

  1. Global Warmer

    Global Warmer Well-Known Member

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    From my experience, Business Class is usually the first car behind the locomotive.

    The QC is usually the second after BC, but sometimes it's toward the tail end.
     
  2. merdelle

    merdelle Active Member

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    For the past number of years it has almost always been BC, then QC, with the Cafe Car 4th or 5th. The NYT labeled their graphic better than the DN. I assume Patrick Murphy would have been in BC if he hadn't been in the CC, so he should thank his rumbling stomach.
     
  3. Moonraker

    Moonraker Rocket Scientist

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    The NYT labeled their graphic better

    Please give us a link. Cannot see any graphics on several NYT webpages, so far.


    RE:INTERESTING FEEDBACK RE: DN GRAPHIC FROM A FORMER PRR FRIEND: Very good graphic. Did notice one interesting point.
    Whoever put the captions on the cars has been around Philly for a long, long time. The "Business Class" car is in the graphic called a "Club
    Car". That is pure Philadelphia PRRese and nothing or nowhere else!!!!
     
  4. Global Warmer

    Global Warmer Well-Known Member

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  5. zeolite

    zeolite Banned

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    The two dingbats weigh in, as usual, with typical bullsh-t. Locking up the brakes is never a good idea since at that point you're sliding.
     
  6. billy ross

    billy ross Well-Known Member

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    The loco on that train is only a year old. It has every modern technological improvement. I'm sure that if anti-lock brakes made sense, it would have had it. I don't believe that it does, though. The biggest advantage of antilock brakes is the maintenance of steering ability. But trains don't have steering wheels, so that is negated.

    As an aside, does any informed person want to speculate whether ACS-64 #601 will be repaired? It'd be a shame to waste $7m like that.
     
    #96 billy ross, May 14, 2015
    Last edited: May 14, 2015
  7. Litter Box

    Litter Box Well-Known Member

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    It seems that the train's speed increased from below 80 to over 100 in the last 20 to 30 seconds prior to derailment. If this is correct it is very strange. My thoughts were that he fell asleep and woke up before the crash but that seems wrong and he was either confused or it was intentional. That info came from the NTSB spokesman.
     
  8. Tartan69

    Tartan69 Pawn in game of life

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    Zeo, I'll just reiterate what Cro said the other day, since I am sometimes baffled by your apparent bipolar-ness:

     
  9. Tartan69

    Tartan69 Pawn in game of life

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    Exactly
     
  10. Jayfar

    Jayfar Junior Old Fart

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    More details on the status of PTC in the area of the derailment:

    http://www.philly.com/philly/busine...eed_control_at_dangerous_Frankford_curve.html

    and this:

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/local...18fcdc-fa1c-11e4-9ef4-1bb7ce3b3fb7_story.html

     
  11. billy ross

    billy ross Well-Known Member

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    So Amtrak wasn't committed to PTC before this disaster? It is amazing that we have the technology which will make this impossible, and now as a result of this tragedy we'll doubly implement it. It's also amazing how we're taking the human element out of safety decisions. Self-driving 18 wheelers, cars, etc. The recent intentional crash of the plane in Spain (killing 149 people, as opposed to 8, which of course is still too many lives wasted). This crash in Philly. The common thread is that the most dangerous part of any transportation vehicle is the nut that holds the wheel. And now we're engineering around that weak link. Are we so far from planes which fly themselves? Will my kids even drive cars?

    I had always thought that the internal combustion engine's days are numbered. Now it seems that I missed the entire point. It's the driver's days that are numbered. Wowsers! This tragedy will drive it home for people like nothing else could. If the train were going the other way, PTC would have prevented this tragedy. But it'll be another few months before PTC is in place in this direction. Who wants to stand in the way of PTC now? And why stop at PTC? Of course we won't. Operator error is sadly all to common. It may not be too long before the term 'jackknifed tractor trailer' goes the way of 'lamplighter', relegated by technological change to a 'What's that mean?' kind of phrase.
     
    #101 billy ross, May 14, 2015
    Last edited: May 14, 2015
  12. Sailaway

    Sailaway Giggity Giggity Goo!

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    PTC would have made this "impossible"? Far from it. As already mentioned, the DC Metro crash proved that one.

    While PTC can improve safety, we're spending tons of money on this; SEPTA has already spent around half a billion. Maybe that'll save a life or two over the years, but it would save orders of magnitude more if we spent that money on PTC for automobiles.
     
  13. Tartan69

    Tartan69 Pawn in game of life

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    From what I have been told, 90% of a commercial airliner flight today is flown by the autopilot. And the only reason the other 10% is done by human is for liability reasons.

    Seems to me that trains would be even simpler to implement if the cost were a bit lower.
     
  14. Tartan69

    Tartan69 Pawn in game of life

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    True, although automating the control mechanisms of a car to eliminate human error is magnitudes more difficult than doing the same on a train.
     
  15. eldondre

    eldondre Well-Known Member

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    Billy they installed a predecessor of ptc southbound because even at 80 mph you can take that curve safely and the speed on the northbound track is 80 before the 50 mph speed restriction. The assumption was that the engineer would not be exceeding the speed before he went into the curve. An assumption that has been true for decades. Even the Congressional wreck was caused by a mechanical failure rather than poor judgment.
    That isn't to say ptc shouldn't be implemented but...
     
  16. Litter Box

    Litter Box Well-Known Member

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    One thing came up about the engine. There is a button that unless pushed one or two times a minute the train will shut down. This seems to be make sure that the engineer does not fall asleep.
     
  17. Jayfar

    Jayfar Junior Old Fart

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    Locomotives for many, many years have had a dead man's pedal or equivalent.
     
  18. eldondre

    eldondre Well-Known Member

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  19. Sailaway

    Sailaway Giggity Giggity Goo!

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    Only the straight-and-level part. Most landings and all takeoffs are manual, at least until a nominal point at climbout. You have to use the A/P in Category II and III weather to land (in English: extremely low visibility or ceilings) for landing and most aircraft are not certified for that. On top of that, very few airports have the necessary equipment to permit such landings.
     
  20. zeolite

    zeolite Banned

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    You seem as confused as Cro sometimes, especially perceiving someone's question as a belief. I simply said "I wonder if....", which could be construed as "Does anyone know if ....". Your response offered nothing useful.
     
  21. Sailaway

    Sailaway Giggity Giggity Goo!

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    I mentioned this upthread. In fact, there are two - the dead man's pedal which immediately throws the loco into emergency braking and a time-based alerter which goes off if the throttle or brakes aren't worked within a 20-second period, unless an acknowledgement reset button is pressed, which applies emergency braking after a grace period of another 10 or 20 seconds.
     
  22. Litter Box

    Litter Box Well-Known Member

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    This is just a crazy thought but what if the engineer cranks up the speed and gets into a sort of safe spot and the speed goes up until the dead man switch kicks in and starts to slow down the train but too late. The only problem I have with that idea is why would anyone do that?
     
  23. zeolite

    zeolite Banned

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    You don't believe it does, but you answer a question by calling me a moron? Well you're wrong as usual, modern passenger trains do employ a system analogous to ABS known as WSP, or wheel slide protection, not that you'd expect very good performance in the conditions with this case.
    The NTSB said the engineer applied the brake too late, meaning it was futile at that point and a worthless endevour, but from the page linked below may still aid the stopping power of the last cars as happened here.

    Controlled wheel slip can also have a limited cleaning action on the rail head along the length of a train. This tends to result in the vehicles at the rear having more grip than those at the front.

    Then the excerpt on WSP....(do your homework billy)

    Wheel Slide Protection (WSP) equipment is generally fitted to passenger trains to manage the behaviour of wheel sets in “low adhesion†(reduced wheel/rail friction) conditions. It is used when braking, and may be considered analogous to anti-lock braking (ABS) for cars.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheel_slide_protection
     
  24. Sailaway

    Sailaway Giggity Giggity Goo!

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    If I'm understanding your question, that may be what happened here. The dead man's pedal operates completely independently of a signal- or speed enforcement system. It's designed to combat incapacitation, sleepiness, or, to a degree, gross inattention. The alerter system is also a second safety. But neither will actually detect an occupied block ahead or much slower speed limit and force a slowdown or stop. Moreover, an engineer can make keeping his foot on the dead man's pedal a habit.

    Although inattentiveness or being on a cellphone will likely figure into this, this being a deliberate act cannot be ruled out at this time.
     
  25. Sailaway

    Sailaway Giggity Giggity Goo!

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    Here's another factor to consider. People are saying, 'well, I'd know if I was doing twice the speed limit'. But, in a brand-new locomotive - or a brand-new car - would you really? Old locomotives ride rough, much like cars. Take a good look out the cab window of a Silverliner 4 and you'll see lots of gaps around the windows. Listen to it as it's running at speed and you'll hear air whistling through them. But, on the newer SLVs, not so much. You know how a new car runs so smooth? That could certainly figure into this.
     
  26. Litter Box

    Litter Box Well-Known Member

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    On the engine that was in the crash the dead man switch was hand operated. Deliberate act was on my mind but why ? The pilot that flew the plane had a plan, if this is similar it is hard for sane people to find a reason in a deranged mind.
     
  27. zeolite

    zeolite Banned

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    This is news. He sped up from 70 to over 100 going into a mandated 50mph zone, "which means he was obeying the governing speed?" Please clarify that one.

    In fairness to all the investigation is at an early stage, and the engineer wants to give his account, so maybe tomorrow we'll know more.
     
  28. Litter Box

    Litter Box Well-Known Member

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    Sort of different but I think the PATCO trains hit about 70 between stations and are very smooth. The fastest I ever hit in a car was 145 and the car was shaking bad. I knew how fast I was going. I think the wheels were a little out of balance but it didn't happen below about 130.
     
  29. zeolite

    zeolite Banned

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    For $500 I'll go with "He lives next to Ross?"
     
  30. Tartan69

    Tartan69 Pawn in game of life

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    Take another look at my response...I answered your question with a definitive "no". If you didn't find that useful then I don't know what else to tell you.
     

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