Kenney continues to grandstand.

Discussion in 'Local and State' started by Baloo, Jul 23, 2014.

  1. Tartan69

    Tartan69 Pawn in game of life

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    I was speaking generically about "law", but you are correct that this is indeed covered specifically by the 14th amendment. I think the argument I'm trying to make is more around the definition of due process and equal protection. For example, if a person commits grand larceny by robbing a bank, and a city has that person in custody, they most certainly will turn that person over to the feds. Consequently, by definition, an illegal immigrant has committed at least one felony. I'm sure the devil is in the details around the process for handover, which is why I am lamenting the fact that the liability issue is in play because it is understandable that this puts cities in a bad spot.
     
  2. Jayfar

    Jayfar I'm very old®

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  3. ShoshTrvls

    ShoshTrvls Well-Known Member

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  4. Politburo

    Politburo Well-Known Member

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    The key difference is that in a bank robbery (and nearly any other crime) you're also violating state law, and state/local authorities can detain based on probable cause that those laws were violated until any federal issues are sorted out.

    The standard for detaining someone is warrant issued on probable cause. Any liability under §1983 arises out of this requirement and the 14th amendment as noted above.. whether its the feds or locals that are open to it is more of a detail. The ideal is no liability, because the government (at any level) shouldn't be violating people's rights.

    ICE does not have the power to arrest someone based on a detainer, they need to get a warrant unless the officer believes the person will escape prior to that being possible, in which case they can arrest and then immediately go get the warrant. So really the question to me is why local authorities should be empowered to detain someone on behalf of ICE based on a document that would not authorize detention by ICE themselves? Issues surrounding cost, liability, and federalism seem secondary.

    (Note that being here without proper documentation is not a crime by definition. If you enter lawfully and overstay a visa, it is handled civilly. An initial unlawful entry is a misdemeanor. Re-entry after removal is a felony and what occurred in this specific case, so this distinction not necessarily relevant here).
     
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  5. Tartan69

    Tartan69 Pawn in game of life

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    I agree that asylum seekers have a different path...I'm not talking about that here. The key is that they have an actual and legitimate case for asylum...just assuming that every illegal is here simply to seek asylum is ridiculous.
     
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  6. Tartan69

    Tartan69 Pawn in game of life

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    This is indeed part of the confusion of our legal system that I'm pointing out, and why we need clear cut rules on all of this. Way way too much subjectivity.
     
  7. Tartan69

    Tartan69 Pawn in game of life

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    I can understand this line of thinking. The issue I am seeing is that this is not clear-cut and well-defined.
     
  8. Templeton

    Templeton Well-Known Member

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    Maybe you should try not getting information from The Daily Caller, a partisan site with an agenda?
     
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  9. Tartan69

    Tartan69 Pawn in game of life

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    Sorry, did I link or quote from the DC? Not sure what you are referring to here.

    Beyond that, I am fully aware that the DC has an agenda, as it is Tucker Carlson's baby. Doesn't automatically make it an invalid source, just one you have to read through a lens and filter accordingly. Like most other sources it seems these days.
     
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  10. Politburo

    Politburo Well-Known Member

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    Probable cause is well-defined. The use of detainers is relatively new issue that only started about 10 years ago. While detainers existed before then, there wasn't a computer system scanning every arrest in the country against databases - a system that has issued detainers based on false positives.

    The question I have never seen answered is why ICE does not obtain warrants. Under three administrations, and likely longer than that, their answer has been "because we don't need to", which isn't good enough.
     
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  11. Templeton

    Templeton Well-Known Member

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    The saagar enjeti guy whose tweet you posted is a DC guy. And the DC's super partisan angle does make it an invalid or untrustworthy source.

    I read the tweet, but it seemed so one sided and incomplete that I looked into it. But the the DC's goal was achieved as you (and countless others I'm sure) came away with a poor understanding of the topic.
     
  12. Politburo

    Politburo Well-Known Member

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    The image in that tweet was actually the press release from the US Attorney.. it was obviously highly politicized.
     
  13. Tartan69

    Tartan69 Pawn in game of life

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    I'm actually agreeing with you. You have Feds expecting action, nominally under the cover of law...but cities are being held liable for following that expectation. Hence two questions:

    1. Why are cities being held liable for following this federal instruction?
    2. Are the Feds actually working under the cover of law? It sounds like they are not.

    This conflict should not be occurring.
     
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  14. Tartan69

    Tartan69 Pawn in game of life

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    I see what you mean then. I did not know he was a DC guy. I forget where I saw the tweet but I can guarantee it wasn't on DC.

    But this is the point of a forum, correct? Educate and debate with a bias towards the middle ground. Not name calling or berating or condescending.
     
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  15. Templeton

    Templeton Well-Known Member

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    I wasn't trying to throw insults, I guess I'm just constantly amazed that someone who considers himself a non-partisan surfs the most partisan sites for information.
     
  16. Tartan69

    Tartan69 Pawn in game of life

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    Point is that I didn't do that for this. But I aggregate all kinds of sites in my news feed...helpful to know what the other side is thinking even if you don't agree with them.
     
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  17. Politburo

    Politburo Well-Known Member

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    1. Because they are the ones doing the action of detaining without a warrant.
    2. Many people, and some courts, believe the answer is "No". It gets a little confusing because the law and regulations do discuss detainers, so in that sense, DHS is following the law. But the law styles them as a request, and of course the Constitution is supreme.

    Kind of weird how we got from "blood on his hands" to "I actually agree with you".
     
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  18. Tartan69

    Tartan69 Pawn in game of life

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    I didn't realize the vastness of the delta between detainer and warrant, the incredible fuzziness of the laws at the federal vs local level, as well as the ruling that liability falls on the city. I feel it is a good practice to adjust my opinion when facts change or when my understanding of facts change.
     
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  19. Politburo

    Politburo Well-Known Member

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    'Blood on his hands' was absurd and over-the-top rhetoric to begin with, and now you're admitting that you made it without a full understanding of the facts? That doesn't sound like a good practice.
     
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  20. Tartan69

    Tartan69 Pawn in game of life

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    You must be really fun at parties
     
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  21. Politburo

    Politburo Well-Known Member

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    Resorting to personal attacks.. why not just not respond.

    Titus and HG- what exactly do you like about that comment?
     
  22. Tartan69

    Tartan69 Pawn in game of life

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    The problem is that nobody likes an elitist condescending a$$hole. I admitted that I gained new insight into a situation that changed my opinion on something in order to agree with you, but yet that wasn't good enough. You demand a bridge-too-far level of perfection. As I've said elsewhere on here, the point of forums are to gain new insight and understanding in order to form and reform opinions...not to have a purely ideological standoff and yell at each other.

    This type of holier-than-thou attitude is widespread on the "intellectual" left, and is PRECISELY why someone like Trump was elected.
     
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  23. Elliott87

    Elliott87 Well-Known Member

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    How do you then account for 62 million votes.
     
  24. Tartan69

    Tartan69 Pawn in game of life

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    I was talking about Politburo and not HRC, but I guess the argument could easily be made that elitist condescending a$$holes like each other...
     
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  25. Elliott87

    Elliott87 Well-Known Member

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    Hillary got 65 remember?
     
  26. Tartan69

    Tartan69 Pawn in game of life

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    Oh ok...62 or 65, whatever, I don't memorize numbers. The only important thing to understand is that she did not win.
     
  27. Politburo

    Politburo Well-Known Member

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    You presented your change in opinion as some kind of 'best practice' based on receiving new information. I pointed out that you started way off in left (or right) field to begin with, and questioned whether that was a good practice. I am not sure what is elitist about that, but guess I hurt some feelings.
     
  28. Tartan69

    Tartan69 Pawn in game of life

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    It isn't out of line to think that a city should follow federal immigration law. Nobody has presented the detailed impact analysis up front...all I have seen on this topic is rhetoric and a dancing Mayor Kenney which is clearly a win by him perceived on the basis of ideology rather than practicality or a sense of right/wrong.
     
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  29. Politburo

    Politburo Well-Known Member

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    You know full well the comment that kicked all this off was not some mundane "I believe the city should follow federal immigration law".

    You earlier claimed to read all kinds of sources to get a view from both sides.. but 'all [you] have seen on this topic is rhetoric and a dancing Mayor Kenney'? Not sure how to reconcile that.

    There is a practical reason behind the sanctuary city policy. The idea goes that if local police are acting as ICE agents, it will reduce residents' cooperation with law enforcement for other crimes. Certainly one can disagree with this, or argue that federal immigration law is a more important priority, or whatever.. but it exists. This is easily searchable like all of the other information I've presented in this thread.
     

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