Gerrymandering

Discussion in 'Local and State' started by MackeyDingo, Jan 31, 2018.

  1. MackeyDingo

    MackeyDingo REALLY Well-Known Member

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    I saw no thread on this topic.

    The state is gerrymandered. The Supreme Court agreed and ordered a new map drawn in time for the upcoming election.

    Here’s the State.

    3DF502F9-62BC-42D8-B3BB-C6C7EE0E7230.png

    Here’s the prime offender, it’s an example of “cracking.” This district appears to take the Dems in DelCo and dilute them with white folk from Chester Country and the Plymouth Meeting area.

    1B8DB1E3-0DCB-4B72-A1E0-45B9431E5374.jpeg

    The top republican lawmaker announced his intention to ignore the court. He says the ruling is unconstitutional. Constitutionality is exactly the thing the Supreme Court exists to decide. That’s very literally thier job.

    Strong message of lawlessness from the Republicans in Harrisburg.

    Top Pennsylvania Republican Says He'll Ignore Court Order To Help Fix Gerrymandering - HuffPost Top Pennsylvania Republican Says He'll Ignore Court Order To Help Fix Gerrymandering — HuffPost
     
    #1 MackeyDingo, Jan 31, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2018
  2. tonyb92681

    tonyb92681 New Member

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    I'm a Libertarian/Former Republican, so I'm supposed to be OK with these borders. Fact is, gerrymandering is gerrymandering, regardless of who draws the lines. It will hurt "my side" but it is the right thing. No one fair minded can look at those districts and say that its not.
     
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  3. Jayfar

    Jayfar I'm very old®

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  4. tonyb92681

    tonyb92681 New Member

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    Elections have consequences. The Republicans thought all they had to do was oppose Obama forever, and they was it. Don't build a party, don't develop a platform. Then you end up with a democrat majority in Superior and Supreme Court.

    As an aside, I don't know why judicial races are partisan. I always thought the way federal seats were appointed were always the wiser option.
     
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  5. Tartan69

    Tartan69 Pawn in game of life

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    Gerrymandering sucks. It only helps politicians, and even then only in the short term. The public suffers from a back and forth problem of under-representation.

    I'm no legal scholar, but it feels like Scarnatti is off base here.
     
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  6. MackeyDingo

    MackeyDingo REALLY Well-Known Member

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    I think when the legislature (who makes the laws) says the judiciary (who interprets the meaning of laws, applies laws to individual cases, and decides if laws violate the Constitution) was wrong and they will be ignored, they are defying the constitution.

    Its a basic part of checks and balances.

    Scarnatti is saying HE HAS LAST SAY if the laws he writes are constitutional.

    Scarnatti's action sets the precedent that there is no check on the constitutionality of laws drafted by the PA legislature.

    I would imagine such an obviously unconstitutional action should be enforceable under federal law. States legislators are certainly not permitted to simply ignore their own laws.
     
  7. Jayfar

    Jayfar I'm very old®

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    SCOTUS denies Pa. GOP lawmakers' attempt to delay drawing new congressional map | Philly.com

    Justice Samuel A. Alito Jr. denied the stay request without referring it to the rest of the court.

    “Failure to refer usually means the Justice has calculated that the other Justices would not be likely to grant a stay,” wrote Richard L. Hasen, a law and political science professor at University of California, Irvine. “It is very unusual for these measures not to be referred, but I’m guessing Justice Alito knows that if he was not convinced, the chances of getting to five were very small.”

    Justin Levitt, a law professor and associate dean at Loyola Law School in Los Angeles, wrote on Twitter that Alito’s denial “is exactly what should have happened” and described it as a bigger deal than the Philadelphia Eagles’ Super Bowl win Sunday night.
     
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  8. OKT3

    OKT3 Garager

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    And now the rally to impeach the justices that didn't vote the way they wanted them to. Scarnati and Dush, truly a confederacy of dunces. Or crazy like foxes?

    Where am I??
     
  9. MackeyDingo

    MackeyDingo REALLY Well-Known Member

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    From same article

    "But the legislature’s two highest-ranking Republicans signaled Monday that they might not be willing to give up their fight. Senate President Pro Tempore Joe Scarnati (R., Jefferson) and House Speaker Mike Turzai (R., Allegheny) issued a joint statement saying they would attempt to comply with the state Supreme Court’s order to redraw congressional maps by Friday “but may be compelled to pursue further legal action in federal court.”
     
  10. Templeton

    Templeton Well-Known Member

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    It's amazing and terrifying watching American politicians start acting like those from the 3rd world banana republic we like to shake our heads at.
     
  11. MackeyDingo

    MackeyDingo REALLY Well-Known Member

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    I agree, but, of course, they couldn't do that if we didn't let them.

    The thing that has most alarmed me is the degree to which people do not have fixed political beliefs. Trump has been able to take the Republican party and drag it to a place where it has turned against the intelligence agencies and the FBI. He did that without presenting evidence against them. He did that in the face of credible allegations with supported by publicly known information (in other words, attacking people investigating him.) He simply made allegations on twitter and the government then set about looking for proof of those allegations.

    The next time you hear a politician say, "They can't do that, the American people won't stand for it." Remember that the American people have proven that to be wrong.
     
  12. Jayfar

    Jayfar I'm very old®

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    #12 Jayfar, Feb 9, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2018
  13. Jayfar

    Jayfar I'm very old®

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    #13 Jayfar, Feb 9, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2018
  14. MackeyDingo

    MackeyDingo REALLY Well-Known Member

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    Whatever we get is likely to have nearly the exact same effect.

    Id love to be wrong.
     
  15. Jayfar

    Jayfar I'm very old®

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    #16 Jayfar, Feb 9, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2018
  16. Jayfar

    Jayfar I'm very old®

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    MORE:

    Pa. legislative leaders submit proposed Congressional map to Gov. Tom Wolf, Supreme Court | PennLive.com

    Terry Madonna weighs in:

    Franklin & Marshall College political science professor G. Terry Madonna said Friday night his first-blush review of the GOP map is that it's an improvement over the now-voided lines.

    "It's a good first offer," Madonna said, "but now they have to give Wolf, who would have the final say on the map lines in bill form, a chance to weigh in."

    If a final bipartisan agreement emerges by Thursday, Madonna added, "I think it would be hard for the Supreme Court to reject."

    Would you live in the same Congressional district? A look at the Pa. GOP's proposed lines | PennLive.com
     
  17. Jayfar

    Jayfar I'm very old®

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    Pa. Republicans have proposed a new congressional map. Democrats say it's still gerrymandered. | Philly.com

    Analysis | Pennsylvania Republicans have drawn a new congressional map that is just as gerrymandered as the old one | Washington Post

    Unfortunately for Pennsylvania voters, the new districts show just as much partisan bias as the old ones.

    You can demonstrate this using the precinct-level results of the 2016 presidential election: See which precincts are assigned to which districts under the new map, use those assignments to calculate the total presidential vote in each of the new districts and compare those figures with the vote totals under the old districts. That will give you a good sense of how the partisan makeup of the new districts compares to the old ones.

    As much as I don't doubt the new map is still badly gerrymandered - after all, it was produced by Republicans with NO Dem input - I don't know that the results of one particularly odd Presidential election is a good metric to use in judging it. On the other hand, would measuring by party registration be more valid? I don't know.
     
    #18 Jayfar, Feb 11, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2018
  18. Jayfar

    Jayfar I'm very old®

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  19. MackeyDingo

    MackeyDingo REALLY Well-Known Member

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    Lets just all accept that the chances of Harrisburg doing the right thing are zero.

    This is the group that wanted to impeach the supreme court for ruling on the constitutionality of the legislature's work. Literally the exact reason we have supreme courts. These people wanted to impeach them. An equal branch of government. For performing its stated purpose.

    The lawlessness infecting the Republican party is deepening and calcifying.
    Ultimately we will either have Republican rule or rule of law. The two are proving incompatible.
     
  20. MackeyDingo

    MackeyDingo REALLY Well-Known Member

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  21. Elliott87

    Elliott87 Well-Known Member

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    Now doesn't that seem reasonable.
     
  22. Jayfar

    Jayfar I'm very old®

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    Probably, but now months (or years) of court battles will ensue, whether the primary takes place with the new map or not.
     
  23. Jayfar

    Jayfar I'm very old®

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  24. Jayfar

    Jayfar I'm very old®

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  25. Titus

    Titus Well-Known Member

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  26. Politburo

    Politburo Well-Known Member

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    The Constitution appears to place the redistricting power with the state legislature and the argument goes that if the legislature wants to screw their constituents (of a certain party), they are free to do so. This was the argument made in Wisconsin and is currently awaiting a SCOTUS decision.

    But previous decisions have held that the redistricting power does not rest solely with the state legislature, but with the state's legislative process. Meaning that the governor can veto a redistricting map (as was done here) and that a state court can review it like any other law, and/or additional state constitution provisions may apply. The lower court decision in the 2015 Arizona case held that "the word ‘Legislature’ in the Elections Clause refers to the legislative process used in [a] state, determined by that state’s own constitution and laws".

    It is by this mechanism that the PA Supreme Court determined they could review the legislative map to determine if it complied with the state constitution. As we know, the PA Court found that the free and equal elections clause of the PA Constitution was violated by the map.

    A further objection along these lines would be to acknowledge the GOP map was bogus, but argue that the PA Court does not have the power to draw its own map. But under the same reasoning above, there are processes in several states where non-legislative bodies have either a final say or some type of review role. For example, in NJ if the (mostly) legislatively-appointed redistricting commission cannot agree on a map, the state Supreme Court decides. So this idea that the state legislature is the only body that can approve a map does not seem to match the reality.
     
  27. MackeyDingo

    MackeyDingo REALLY Well-Known Member

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    The idea that only a legislature can draw the map also doesn't make much sense in a system where everything is supposed to have a check or a level of accountability.

    For example: If the legislature wanted to redraw the maps for permanent rule, there is no way to stop them. They can't be voted out (they just drew the maps to ensure that) so there is no check. It would be technically possible to create a tyranny of the minority (popular vote anyone?) and single party rule.

    Its an obvious problem that really needs no advocate.
    Which in today's America means half the country sees the attempt at solving the problem as THE PROBLEM.

    I fully expect the legislature to offer a solution along the lines of disbanding the supreme court or canceling the election, and frame it as a defense of Pennsylvanian's freedom.
     

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