Bitcoin

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by CanWeTalk, Apr 3, 2013.

  1. BarryG

    BarryG Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2009
    Messages:
    6,580
    Likes Received:
    0
    Not when the Bitcoin transactions occur over an anonymous network like Tor -- which is common. The exchange is truly anonymous and untrackable.
     
  2. BarryG

    BarryG Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2009
    Messages:
    6,580
    Likes Received:
    0
    Well Bitcoin is not a network, it is an algorithm that is wide open and designed to be resilient and secure even if the networks carrying it are broken. Since it's been published, studied, and in wide use for a while now, any weaknesses in the algorithm itself will likely have discovered and exploited. The only possible fundamental weakness is if the encryption algorithm is broken -- which is extremely unlikely, unless there is a major computing breakthrough like quantum computing. Even in this case, as I understand it, the algorithm is designed so that an alternative encryption algorithm can be swapped in if necessary (and it probably will be at some point, if Bitcoin has any staying power, but the encryption used will likely take decades to be breakable even by supercomputers).
     
  3. the mule

    the mule Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2010
    Messages:
    1,096
    Likes Received:
    0
    I've already expressed my doubts about bitcoin. My point is dollars also have 0 intrinsic value, so everyone guffawing about bitcoin being based on nothing should really think twice about the dollar, or any other fiat currency for that matter. A little doubt about America's infinite resilience might go a long way toward motivating a little fiscal discipline on the part of the House.
     
  4. raider.adam

    raider.adam Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2008
    Messages:
    16,800
    Likes Received:
    5
    But that is the point that is being incorrectly stated. The dollar DOES have intrinsic value. To put simply, one of its major pieces of value is that it is currency that has to be accepted when paying debts and taxes. When paying off your car loan, mortgage or paying your taxes or a $10 million private loan, they have to accept US currency and can not refuse.

    That is a value bitcoin does not have.
     
  5. five apples

    five apples Deacon Blues

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2008
    Messages:
    3,108
    Likes Received:
    8
    I think the belief that the dollar doesn't have intrinsic value is part of a larger thought process on how the world is falling apart and etc. It isn't actually true, but it plays nicely into this world view which in itself is why the bitcoin exists. As the writer points out in the article you linked, it has always been something Gold Bugs have played on (looking at you Fox News). So though the dollar does have intinsic value, some people will always argue that it doesn't because they believe the world is going to fall apart any day now. I am not saying there aren't concerns about our fiscal situation, because there are, but the United States collapse is not eminent either.
     
  6. jizay

    jizay Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2009
    Messages:
    808
    Likes Received:
    12
    I don't think the world is falling apart; I'm in general more optimistic than most. But it simply is true that the dollar has no intrinsic value and is a fiat currency. I have no idea even what the argument is, since this is generally accepted to be true. Yes, it is legal tender for debts. But legal tender with no fixed value. Bitcoin is not a currency by any legal decree, so I guess one could say it's a weaker form of fiat currency.
     
  7. five apples

    five apples Deacon Blues

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2008
    Messages:
    3,108
    Likes Received:
    8
    If two computers communicated with each other across a network, then there is a digital record of that transaction. So though Tor might help you hide the transmission across a network, it doesn't negate the fact that the transaction occurred. Tor makes it harder to to snoop the transaction while it occurs, but it doesn't make it impossible to intercept, and doesn't take care of the fact that two computers talked to each other. If you are super vigilant you can do a lot to hide what you are doing, but Tor is not foolproof (If you are a bit paranoid you might like to know the DOD initially created TOR).
     
  8. jizay

    jizay Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2009
    Messages:
    808
    Likes Received:
    12
    You've changed the definition of "intrinsic." Dollars aren't made from valuable material. Intrinsically, they are only worth the paper they are printed on, which is worth less than the nominal amount printed on it. Yes, they must be accepted for debts, but they carry no guarantee of conversion into anything but dollars, and they carry no fixed value and can (will, unless you think there will be no inflation) become less valuable over time. Those are the characteristics that define a fiat currency. I should say - I don't think fiat currency is a bad thing; it is far preferable to something like a gold standard, but we undeniably have a fiat currency.
     
  9. five apples

    five apples Deacon Blues

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2008
    Messages:
    3,108
    Likes Received:
    8
    Ok I concede, I will withdraw the usage of the word intrinsic for semantic purposes, but then there is no such currency of matter that would qualify. I will say though that having the faith of the US government backing the dollar is as good as one can get to having an intrinsic value even by the strictest terms of that words definition.

    Anyway, we have gotten a bit off topic. Just no one go out and get Bitcoins unless you are a good old gambler or like to do illegal things.
     
  10. raider.adam

    raider.adam Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2008
    Messages:
    16,800
    Likes Received:
    5
    You're right, shouldn't be using the word intrinsic with money because that means it is commodity money.

    What I mean is there is a "worth" to the US dollar because it has the power of the law behind it.

    But bitcoin isn't a poor man's fiat currency because fiat currency gets its value from government and regulation. By definition, it isn't a fiat currency.
     
  11. BReynoldsIsBald

    BReynoldsIsBald Couldn't Care Less

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2013
    Messages:
    399
    Likes Received:
    0
    I don't understand how anyone can truly believe the US dollar, or any fiat currency, has any intrinsic value. The only currency that is intrinsic are PM's and PM's only.
     
  12. BReynoldsIsBald

    BReynoldsIsBald Couldn't Care Less

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2013
    Messages:
    399
    Likes Received:
    0
    The dollar has no intrinsic value but besides that ... small or large concern that most (not all) of the major economies around the globe are overloaded in debt, and if they aren't in the current race to destroy their currency (japan, england, etc) they will soon be joining that race (usa)?
     
  13. Panniculus

    Panniculus Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2013
    Messages:
    416
    Likes Received:
    0
    Probably the same way someone can believe that Muslims set off bombs in Boston yesterday without a shred of evidence.
     
  14. the mule

    the mule Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2010
    Messages:
    1,096
    Likes Received:
    0
    A fiat currency by definition has no intrinsic value. So my point is quite correctly stated. Argue all you want about its status as a reserve currency or legal tender, that's neither here nor there. You need to understand what intrinsic means. Relying on something else (US government) to create value is the antithesis of intrinsic value. Just because some schmuck writes an article for Business Insider arguing to the contrary doesn't make it so. It just shows he has a flawed understanding of either economics or English.

    The reason this came up was because posters mocked Bitcoin as having no intrinsic value. That's not something to be mocked about in the current global economy, but it should be mocked for the idea that the computation mining model is any guarantee of its value.
     
    #74 the mule, Apr 16, 2013
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2013
  15. five apples

    five apples Deacon Blues

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2008
    Messages:
    3,108
    Likes Received:
    8
    Actually I said it has no value at all, while other currencies do, the mi-use of the word intrinsic which entered later doesn't discount the fact. In the real world economy we live in, the US Dollar, Yen, English Pound and Euro do have a value, no matter how much you want to quibble about it. Bitcoin has none other than those holding it says it does. It can't even be qualified as a commodity or a stock, it is more akin to trading cards in real world value.

    I am just so sick and tired of the dollar is worthless argument, because it quite simply isn't true. It just plays into this far right American world view that everything is falling apart and I am sick of having it drilled into my head. I guess walking away from this board and comment sections on most news sites would help with this particular problem.

    Technically it doesn't have an intrinsic value, but saying it has no value shows just as great a lack of knowledge of how the major world economies operate.
     
  16. jizay

    jizay Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2009
    Messages:
    808
    Likes Received:
    12
    I don't see anyone saying a dollar is worthless. If you find anyone making that argument, let me know and I'll be happy to take their dollars off of them. But to be fair to bitcoins, they aren't worthless either. If you believe that, I'll be happy to buy from you any that you happen to come across at $1 each. That way, you can have valuable dollars and I can have worthless bitcoins.
     
  17. guzzijason

    guzzijason Mostly Human

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2008
    Messages:
    1,823
    Likes Received:
    1
    I have no bitcoins to sell you. Because, bitcoins.

    I may be willing to trade you some pogs, however.

    __Jason
     
  18. BReynoldsIsBald

    BReynoldsIsBald Couldn't Care Less

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2013
    Messages:
    399
    Likes Received:
    0
    As long as Bitcoin is accepted as payment for a good or service, it has value. That value may be on a much, much smaller scale but it has value none the less.

    This statement that you wrote about value, “Bitcoin has none other than those holding it says it does”. If you replace Bitcoin with, gold, silver, Euro, Dollar, etc, etc .. they same notion could hold true, no?



    Which far right American said the US dollar is worthless? Was it on this site or did you read and/or hear it somewhere?
     
  19. jizay

    jizay Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2009
    Messages:
    808
    Likes Received:
    12
    Ahh - a trip down memory lane. BTC now trading at $1,044!
     
  20. Jayfar

    Jayfar I'm very old®

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2008
    Messages:
    8,794
    Likes Received:
    734
    #80 Jayfar, Mar 19, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2017
  21. jizay

    jizay Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2009
    Messages:
    808
    Likes Received:
    12
    1 BTC = $4,344 USD. Where will it end?
     
  22. MackeyDingo

    MackeyDingo REALLY Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2012
    Messages:
    786
    Likes Received:
    296
    I'm not sure about WHERE(end of the rainbow?) But as for as WHEN it will end, considering it was at $5000 a few weeks ago... Now might be a possibility.

    That said, I'm not selling. Buy and hold, I say.
     
  23. Tartan69

    Tartan69 Pawn in game of life

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2009
    Messages:
    4,154
    Likes Received:
    585
    I won't be sold on this as anything but a speculative investment until it is accepted and legitimized by the government. Far too easy for them to just up and outlaw it like China is doing. Sure, you'll still be able to find people globally to accept it, but the pool will be extremely small and thus it won't have nearly the same value.

    Tremendous upside though, so it is smart to hold at least some amount. Just don't make it a huge part of your portfolio.
     
    Jayfar likes this.
  24. MackeyDingo

    MackeyDingo REALLY Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2012
    Messages:
    786
    Likes Received:
    296
    I agree totally. And China's action hurts it in the near term. The concept of electronic money is intriguing, part of me feels it is inevitable in some form. But there is so much uncertainty. Will there be more than one standard currency? Will they ever get a grip on stolen currency? Is this just a "wild west" phase?
     
    Tartan69 likes this.
  25. Bixbyte

    Bixbyte Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2009
    Messages:
    3,015
    Likes Received:
    177
    Bitcoin safer than the US Banks.
    Now, that every ones credit info was stolen off Equifax,
    might as well purchase one bitcoin account and have your money safely parked on the wireless Network.
    So long as you have a strong password.
     
  26. Jayfar

    Jayfar I'm very old®

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2008
    Messages:
    8,794
    Likes Received:
    734
    Tartan69 likes this.
  27. Bixbyte

    Bixbyte Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2009
    Messages:
    3,015
    Likes Received:
    177
    Cryptocurrencies such as Bitcoin provide people around the world new and innovative ways of engaging in legitimate commerce,” said U.S. Attorney Colin Stretch, whose office will be prosecuting the case. “As this case demonstrates, however, just as new computer technologies continue to change the way we engage each other and experience the world, so too will criminals subvert these new technologies to serve their own nefarious purposes.”
     
  28. Tartan69

    Tartan69 Pawn in game of life

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2009
    Messages:
    4,154
    Likes Received:
    585
  29. Tartan69

    Tartan69 Pawn in game of life

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2009
    Messages:
    4,154
    Likes Received:
    585
    I see it a little bit like auto-driving cars...awesome utopian concept in theory, but too many bad actors to really solve for. Somebody is going to hack it, either for profit or for fun. I'm sure solutions will eventually be found, but I think we're stuck in the wild west phase for quite awhile.
     
    Jayfar likes this.

Share This Page