Thinking of moving to West Philly...

**Brian616** · 11-23-2011, 01:48 PM

...and I'm looking for advice. I currently live across the river in SWCC, and need a bigger house. I'm looking at Spruce Hill and Cedar Park houses online at the moment. Living in the PAS zone would be a plus, but not necessary (I'm up to date on all the confusion about the school). Some questions:

1. How far out should I go? Anecdotally, I've heard "don't go past 50th", but I have no idea how true this is.
2. What are people's utility bills like?
3. (somewhat related) Why don't any of the houses have central AC? Is it really hard to have it put in?

OK, have at it, and thanks!

**annie** · 11-23-2011, 05:13 PM

I bought west of 50th Street last year and the first "newcomers" to the block bought something like six years ago and I know young families/couples that have bought west of 52nd in the last couple years. I would not limit your search to within a specific street but instead go and see anything of interest and then decide whether you feel comfortable on the block and if works for your commute etc. A realtor based in West Philly would be used to this approach and humor you.

The totally renovated houses we looked at more frequently had central A/C. I guess with partial rehabs people don't want to spend the money, figuring all the ceiling fans could be interpreted as Victorian charm. We used the central air lightly this summer to cut down on the crazy humidity and then ran a bedroom window unit at night. From talking to our neighbors, utilities vary a lot based on usage, insulation and whether you have a two or three story place.

**thoth** · 11-24-2011, 08:10 AM

I have friends that live at 53rd and Springfield. It's not the greatest neighborhood, but it's also not Kensington. If you're looking for a bargain that will likely increase in value, I would be hunting right beyond 52nd or the rail line.

Personally, I think just about everything out to 52nd is fine, and there are a lot of nice blocks just beyond as well. Closer to Market St seems to = crappier. Closer to Kingsessing = crappier. There is certainly crime, but I think "West Philly" all gets lumped together for people that are unfamiliar with the area

**boognish** · 11-27-2011, 09:04 AM

If you don't mind the question, what's your budget? That may help us narrow things down for you.

There isn't much AC because the homes in general are boiler-heated as opposed to HVAC. It is possible to retrofit for AC if it's important.

As for utility bills, it's very dependent upon the size of one's home and the state of insulation/windows. We actually keep our 4 story Vic at 52 in the winter, heating individual rooms as opposed to the entire place. Works well for us, but that's probably too cold for most. Our gas bill runs around $250/month at that temp. With the money we're saving, we'll upgrade our windows and insulation in a year or so, then bump up the heat. In the meantime, gas fireplaces rule.

**gren** · 11-27-2011, 02:35 PM

I lived south of Baltimore for a bit and I really liked the area. You can get a nice sized twin right north of the tracks for a decent price. I also like the south of Baltimore advantages of trolleys although you're farther from a good grocery store and some of the nicer places in University City. I also had no problem with the summer heat. A fan and open windows worked pretty well on those shaded blocks. You also get to be close to Clark Park.

**MariusPontmercy** · 11-27-2011, 02:48 PM

West of 50th St. between Baltimore Ave. and say maybe Spruce St didn't seem bad to me at all, like around Malcolm X Park. There are some really nice blocks out there. West Philly definitely does not have the distinctions that parts of North and South Philly seem to have, where people will tell you what neighborhoods are good or bad to a block.

**monkeyajb** · 11-28-2011, 12:27 AM

I've lived on 51st St. at Malcolm X. Park for almost 5 years. I have friends who live as far west as 57th st. It really is block-to-block, but don't feel like some of the common boundaries should limit you -- 50th, 52nd, are often mentioned. There are lots of really great, safe blocks all over West Philly. Dollar-for-dollar, the area between 47th and 52nd, between Spruce and Baltimore, is probably the best value in the entire city.

If you are up-to-date on all the confusion regarding PAS, I would offer one additional purchasing recommendation; homes in the catchment are still carrying the catchment markup, which puzzles me. I think the inflation has to be in part because many buyers, new to the neighborhood, don't realize that buying in the catchment doesn't mean what it used to.

**annie** · 11-28-2011, 08:19 AM

Originally Posted by monkeyajb

If you are up-to-date on all the confusion regarding PAS, I would offer one additional purchasing recommendation; homes in the catchment are still carrying the catchment markup, which puzzles me. I think the inflation has to be in part because many buyers, new to the neighborhood, don't realize that buying in the catchment doesn't mean what it used to.

I don't think so. I was at a community meeting where a realtor said only five or six houses in the PAS catchment have sold since the enrollment announcement and a couple of those were already under agreement of sale at the time of the announcement. She was making the argument that prices really haven't dropped because sellers who purchases in the last five years would be underwater which I think is part of it, the other part people not being able to let go of an extra $100-60K they thought they had.

**Brian616** · 11-28-2011, 08:42 AM

Originally Posted by annie

I don't think so. I was at a community meeting where a realtor said only five or six houses in the PAS catchment have sold since the enrollment announcement and a couple of those were already under agreement of sale at the time of the announcement. She was making the argument that prices really haven't dropped because sellers who purchases in the last five years would be underwater which I think is part of it, the other part people not being able to let go of an extra $100-60K they thought they had.

Thanks for all the help. Compared to SWCC (where I live now), there are maybe 1/10 of the houses on the market in West Philly- the PAS confusion has to be a big part of that. I think I can afford up to $400k right now. To answer an earlier post, my wife and I came here from Michigan, so AC in the summer is very, very important. I don't think she would have made it through her first summer alive without it.

Right now, I live just a few blocks from Point Breeze, so I'm used to dealing with being near a...rougher neighborhood. OTOH, I live in a total rehab with central air, a brand new roof and very low utility bills, and those things are all rather addicting. I don't think I could afford a really nice house in the catchment- between 47th and 52nd may be the place for me.

**annie** · 11-28-2011, 11:14 AM

Even outside the PAS catchment, there's a lot less on the market than there was a year ago when I was house shopping last year (and there was less then than during the $8K tax credit time). I think it's the economy and financing plus I imagine West Philly is more one-off rehabbers or family-owned than what's going on in Point Breeze. An adorable house on my block listed for a reasonable price got taken off the market after a couple months and rented rather than snapped right up.

With your budget, you could afford a three-story Victorian but might not like the heating/cooling costs and lack of central air. The two-story total rehabs would be way cheaper (in the $200K-275 range)and are more likely to have a/c and not kill you with the bills. There's one on 51st on the "wrong" side of Baltimore and I saw there was another on 51st closer to Spruce but I can't find the listing online. Good luck!

**fuzzycraig** · 11-28-2011, 11:52 AM

I just wanted to point out that, while the PAS over-crowding issue is important and needs to be addressed, only a very small handful of kids have been turned away from the school. Even if things remained entirely unchanged from where they are now, and I'd be surprised if that turned out to be the case, families living in the catchment would still have something like a 90+% chance of sending their kids to the school. Nobody likes uncertainty, and nobody likes kids getting turned away from school, but I imagine that a nine out of ten chance of getting a great education in a pretty amazing neighborhood will always fetch some sort of premium on the real estate market.

That said, you can get a nice house in the catchment for under 400K. We did. No A/C though. Part of the problem with retrofitting these houses for A/C, in addition to them just not being built for ducts, is that you'd have to tear up a lot of the mill work which makes the houses charming in the first place. Mini-duct systems are certainly an option.

But if you're not sold on the catchment, I would recommend Garden Court or Cedar Park, both terrific neighborhoods. I'd be surprised if you can't find something for under 400k in this market if you bide your time.

C

**daveydoo** · 11-28-2011, 07:36 PM

Originally Posted by thoth

I have friends that live at 53rd and Springfield. It's not the greatest neighborhood, but it's also not Kensington. If you're looking for a bargain that will likely increase in value, I would be hunting right beyond 52nd or the rail line.

Personally, I think just about everything out to 52nd is fine, and there are a lot of nice blocks just beyond as well. Closer to Market St seems to = crappier. Closer to Kingsessing = crappier. There is certainly crime, but I think "West Philly" all gets lumped together for people that are unfamiliar with the area

There are a couple of nice blocks flanking Springfield past the tracks. The block of 51st between Chester & Springfield has its charms. I also like the 1100 block of Wilton, although that may be a bit too far west for some.

I wouldn't necessarily agree that it gets crappier as you get closer to Market (although the nicest stretch of 52nd is certainly Malcolm X) but I would agree that past the El there's a definite drop-off. One of my friends lives on Chestnut east of 51st and I find that area to be quite pleasant aesthetically speaking. I haven't inquired as to how the new high school has affected things one way or the other.

**thoth** · 11-29-2011, 11:38 AM

Originally Posted by daveydoo

There are a couple of nice blocks flanking Springfield past the tracks. The block of 51st between Chester & Springfield has its charms. I also like the 1100 block of Wilton, although that may be a bit too far west for some.

I wouldn't necessarily agree that it gets crappier as you get closer to Market (although the nicest stretch of 52nd is certainly Malcolm X) but I would agree that past the El there's a definite drop-off. One of my friends lives on Chestnut east of 51st and I find that area to be quite pleasant aesthetically speaking. I haven't inquired as to how the new high school has affected things one way or the other.

I'm not saying that 51st and chestnut is terrible or anything, but in general as you go farther south and east from the El the neighborhood get progressively nicer. Compare 51st and Chestnut with 49th and Larchwood. The El and 52nd St's current condition are the biggest sources of blight for the area. The residential areas surrounding them are all fairly intact, but their dilapidation reflects negatively on the whole neighborhood.

**Brian616** · 11-30-2011, 01:13 PM

Originally Posted by fuzzycraig

I just wanted to point out that, while the PAS over-crowding issue is important and needs to be addressed, only a very small handful of kids have been turned away from the school.

That said, you can get a nice house in the catchment for under 400K. We did. No A/C though. Part of the problem with retrofitting these houses for A/C, in addition to them just not being built for ducts, is that you'd have to tear up a lot of the mill work which makes the houses charming in the first place. Mini-duct systems are certainly an option.

That would be ideal for me, I think. I'm also willing to camp out in line for a looong time to get a PAS spot, if need be. That's 6 years of not worrying about school decisions! I'm hopeful (ok, wishful) that I could get a good deal due to all the uncertainty, but we'll see.

**fuzzycraig** · 11-30-2011, 02:42 PM

Originally Posted by Brian616

I'm hopeful (ok, wishful) that I could get a good deal due to all the uncertainty, but we'll see.

Good luck! There's a lot to recommend the neighborhood -- and the surrounding neighborhood -- in addition to the school.

**annie** · 11-30-2011, 03:13 PM

Not to make this a PAS thread but FuzzyCraig's 90% chance comment reminded me - I really think PAS just had the bad luck of being the "first" school in the city to go through this because of the increase in interest in city-living for young families combined with the seemingly ingrained Philly traditions of "knowing someone" and/or faking an address to attend certain schools. I've heard Meredith and McCall are getting close to or have already stopped being able to guarantee admission to the siblings of out of catchment students which sounds like only a couple years away from the same lower grade enrollment problem. Maybe they can redraw their catchments without people coming out with pitchforks, IDK. Obviously, I hope the energy will flow towards schools that could use more support (Lea, Jackson, Kearny, Arthur, Stanton, Nebinger etc.) but I digress.

Happy house hunting! The house I mentioned by 51st and Spruce is 305 S. 51st (has central air).

**annie** · 12-11-2011, 10:56 AM

Originally Posted by annie

An adorable house on my block listed for a reasonable price got taken off the market after a couple months and rented rather than snapped right up.

Whoops, BRT updated and it apparently did get snapped up almost immediately for the asking. Outside the PAS catchment things can still move fast. Have you been looking at the 4900 block of Pentridge? There's been a couple full renos on the western half of the block.

**Brian616** · 04-10-2012, 10:06 AM

Thread bump: I'm still looking, and there still isn't much inventory. One possible trend I've noticed is that there are some nice houses available for a reasonable price. The catch? They are right up on the edge of the catchment. I wonder if the sellers are worried about the PAS boundaries shrinking. What do you guys think?

230 South Melville Street, Philadelphia PA | MLS# 5990620 - Trulia

4253 Regent Square, Philadelphia PA | MLS# 6032446 - Trulia

**seand** · 04-10-2012, 12:23 PM

They do not want the backlash of changing the catchment any time soon. It won't happen. They will just, as they have already started to, move to a lottery where most but not all parents in the catchment will get in. You may be right that because the catchment no longer is a guarantee, its less of a determining value in terms real estate prices but its not that the catchment is moving its boundaries. Its that living in the catchment is no longer a "lock" on admission.

**seand** · 04-10-2012, 12:25 PM

Originally Posted by annie

Whoops, BRT updated and it apparently did get snapped up almost immediately for the asking. Outside the PAS catchment things can still move fast. Have you been looking at the 4900 block of Pentridge? There's been a couple full renos on the western half of the block.

That block has undergone a dramatic transformation in the last year or so but because its hidden away a lot of people may not have noticed.