Construction at 30th Street Station?

[desolate]

MAYBE THIS WILL HELP.....

Drexel moves east in $22 million campus expansion deal


Drexel University has spent $21.8 million to buy 3.6 acres on the north side of the 3000 block of John F. Kennedy Boulevard, between the school's West Philadelphia campus and 30th Street Station.

The purchase of the land from a group of California investors, currently operated as the Five Star asphalt parking lot, will allow Drexel to add academic classroom and research, and commerical office, retail and residential developments with "24 hour" uses at the school's eastern end, helping link the campus to Center City, university president John Fry told me.

Fry says he's begun approaching developers, including Brandywine Realty Trust, which built the neighboring Cira office tower in the mid-2000s, about possible projects. Drexel trustees are drafting a master plan for the campus that would include the site. He credited former trustee chairman George Ross with the previous purchase of the nearby Evening Bulletin building south of the Five Star purchase. Fry also said he's talking to Amtrak about possible expansion over the nearby train yards.

Drexel is the latest West Philly institution to expand toward Center City. See previous plans by Penn and CHOP.



Read more: Drexel moves east in $22 million campus expansion deal | PhillyDeals | 06/27/2011
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I now fear the "walkability at all costs" will now be applied to JFK.

One road has to handle all the traffic. They all can't be "walkable" store-fronted pedestrian areas.

We lost a lot of the grid due to Penn and Drexel putting unneeded stress on the remaining roads.

and roads are needed, for deliveries, for buses, etc. It's not all soccer moms.

Penn and that area specifically handles all of the traffic leaving U City and western Center City.

Its finally working with the dual lefts and the long strech of JFK acts like a resevoir, holding built up traffic from 76.

I fear it's loss will only worsen the horrible conditions at the Market St intersections.

Sometimes you have to pick, one road for the traffic, the rest for the people.

Penn picked 38th to allow for a sleepy 36th, 37th, 39th, and 40th.

RIght now we don't have a traffic road, Market has too many pedestrians and bikes and will have more...so one needs to be for the traffic, ala JFK Boulevard.

[lewblum]

I don't buy it. It's not like the road will get narrower.

At the most, they'll put in on-street parking and a mid-block traffic light.

You know as well as I do that the biggest problem you'll see on JFK is the problem that exists now - the intersection with Market where there's only one right turn lane.
More development will exacerbate that. It doesn't matter if that development is in the form of walkable mixed use buildings with a zero setback or a suburban-style, single use residential or office building set back 100 feet from the curb.



...just like your South Street Bridge predictions.

[desolate]

I don't buy it. It's not like the road will get narrower.

At the most, they'll put in on-street parking and a mid-block traffic light.

You know as well as I do that the biggest problem you'll see on JFK is the problem that exists now - the intersection with Market where there's only one right turn lane.
More development will exacerbate that. It doesn't matter if that development is in the form of walkable mixed use buildings with a zero setback or a suburban-style, single use residential or office building set back 100 feet from the curb.



...just like your South Street Bridge predictions.

My South St Bridge predictions didn't happen because they ignored the Local Recommendation. They left the wide PennDot turning radii, and staggered the timing. The width stops the bikes from illegally crossing and they adressed the back up on the ramps by having the intersection controlled to switch to green on the ramp for back ups.

I fear this JFK Project beucase right now JFK works.

I promise that the new plan will end up with one lane both way, bike lanes (when there's already going to be lanes on Market)

The BOLT buses already have caused problems, backing the traffic up past Cira. Not the buses themselves, the idiots double parking all over waiting for the buses.

Although Drexel takes full advantage of a lack of two turning lanes at Makret by assigning an officer to ticket, instead of just fixing the problem.

[eldondre]

My South St Bridge predictions didn't happen because they ignored the Local Recommendation. They left the wide PennDot turning radii, and staggered the timing. The width stops the bikes from illegally crossing and they adressed the back up on the ramps by having the intersection controlled to switch to green on the ramp for back ups.

I fear this JFK Project beucase right now JFK works.

I promise that the new plan will end up with one lane both way, bike lanes (when there's already going to be lanes on Market)

The BOLT buses already have caused problems, backing the traffic up past Cira. Not the buses themselves, the idiots double parking all over waiting for the buses.

Although Drexel takes full advantage of a lack of two turning lanes at Makret by assigning an officer to ticket, instead of just fixing the problem.

you fear change. JFK doesn't work, it just moves the problem. why do I have to sit at a light to turn onto market if I want to fo north on 33rd? stupid. there isn't a whole lot of logic in your fear which I suppose why you chose fear, an emotion, for your description. developing this land instead of land further away might actually reduce traffic since it's easily accessible to transit. if the same development occurred six blocks away, you'd have the same demand to get there (although if it's dorms, it seems unlikely car demand will be much) but a larger portion of it will be cars.

[onlyone]

Sometimes you have to pick, one road for the traffic, the rest for the people.

I find statements like this amazing. Look around you. *All* the roads are for the cars, not the people. Yet when one road is to be made even marginally more walkable or bikable, suddenly "car's rights" are threatened.

Market is not at all dominated by pedestrians. Traffic routinely runs at twice the speed limit from 42nd to 33rd, and then runs at a perfectly reasonable pace from then on. Pedestrians and bikes routinely get bumped or nearly bumped on it.

[desolate]

you fear change. JFK doesn't work, it just moves the problem. why do I have to sit at a light to turn onto market if I want to fo north on 33rd? stupid. there isn't a whole lot of logic in your fear which I suppose why you chose fear, an emotion, for your description. developing this land instead of land further away might actually reduce traffic since it's easily accessible to transit. if the same development occurred six blocks away, you'd have the same demand to get there (although if it's dorms, it seems unlikely car demand will be much) but a larger portion of it will be cars.

C'mon El, you know this area acts as a massive "onramp/offramp for ALL of University City and West Center City.

[eldondre]

C'mon El, you know this area acts as a massive "onramp/offramp for ALL of University City and West Center City.

that doesn't really change anything, it's also the intercity gateway and a major transit hub.

[lewblum]

this area should be a gem of urbanism, not an expressway.

[desolate]

this area should be a gem of urbanism, not an expressway.

It is, because they spent a lot of bank burying and hiding the highway.

Urbanism is people, that highway brings in all the people to create your "urbanism"

[eldondre]

It is, because they spent a lot of bank burying and hiding the highway.

Urbanism is people, that highway brings in all the people to create your "urbanism"

urbanism isn't an offramp. unless drexel plans on putting beds in the middle of the street, I fail to see legitimacy in your belief that 30th st should remain a barren wasteland. indeed, it's the exact opposite of what it should be. having all the growth down in the hospital complex puts the same pressure on the roads but is much more difficult to get to any other way. the reason the highway is underground and over the river is largely because of the pennsy, which didn't want to cede its land for a highway. can't say as I blame them, nothing like having the government target your industry for elimination through taxpayer financed construction

[desolate]

urbanism isn't an offramp. unless drexel plans on putting beds in the middle of the street, I fail to see legitimacy in your belief that 30th st should remain a barren wasteland. indeed, it's the exact opposite of what it should be. having all the growth down in the hospital complex puts the same pressure on the roads but is much more difficult to get to any other way. the reason the highway is underground and over the river is largely because of the pennsy, which didn't want to cede its land for a highway. can't say as I blame them, nothing like having the government target your industry for elimination through taxpayer financed construction

SO what do you do with the 200,000+ vehicles in that area per day.

Say "take a train you selfish *******s"

???

[mixiboi]

More things that'll make 30 St Fun for drivers:

I-76, I-95 work will mean delays | Philadelphia Inquirer | 07/05/2011

University City, today till Friday.

Market Street: Lanes will close from 9 a.m. to 3:30 p.m. and from 7 p.m. to 6 a.m. between 30th Street and Schuylkill Avenue.

Chestnut Street: Lanes will close from 9 a.m. to 3:30 p.m. and from 7 p.m. to 10 p.m., also between 30th Street and Schuylkill Avenue. Then, from 10 p.m. to 5 a.m., the street will CLOSE, with cars detoured to 33d Street, Market Street and Schuylkill Avenue.

I-76 Eastbound: From 8 p.m. to 5 a.m., only one lane will be open approaching the 30th Street/Market Street Exit, as work is done on the Chestnut Street bridge.

The work is part of a $50.8 million project to improve roads around 30th Street Station and to rehab six bridges over Amtrak's Northeast Corridor rail lines. Street improvements in the area should finish in November, but work on the bridges will continue until December 2012.

[eldondre]

SO what do you do with the 200,000+ vehicles in that area per day.

Say "take a train you selfish *******s"

???

what on earth are you talking about? sounds like a lot of mumbo jumbo. obviously if you build next to the station more people will take the train than if you build away from it, seems pretty common sense. you do the same as you do now. seems like the one being selfish is you, "let's keep the area depressed because there might be more traffic." that's no way to run a city

[desolate]

what on earth are you talking about? sounds like a lot of mumbo jumbo. obviously if you build next to the station more people will take the train than if you build away from it, seems pretty common sense. you do the same as you do now. seems like the one being selfish is you, "let's keep the area depressed because there might be more traffic." that's no way to run a city

and that's why I said "one street for traffic"

To let all the others become wakable, store front retail.

You can't have both.

[eldondre]

Philly.com : At 30th St. Station, a plan for gateway to city
would be nice for cromati to admit septas atrocious headhouse is lart of the problem. once the newspaper guy moves you still have the elevator blocking the stairs. if there was ever a septa station that could use escalators rhis is it. a canopy would be an improvement but id like to see water drainage improved. at least the plaza improvements sound good so long as there are trees or canopies to protect from the elements

[desolate]

Philly.com : At 30th St. Station, a plan for gateway to city
would be nice for cromati to admit septas atrocious headhouse is lart of the problem. once the newspaper guy moves you still have the elevator blocking the stairs. if there was ever a septa station that could use escalators rhis is it. a canopy would be an improvement but id like to see water drainage improved. at least the plaza improvements sound good so long as there are trees or canopies to protect from the elements

I'm glad we are building all this for the thousands who live there and will not leave all of this totally unused outside of 7-9 and 5-6

Right?

I'm sure this will be as heavily used as similar transit only commercial areas. Just look how packed Dilworth Plaza is at 9 PM!

Right...


andother case of people "imagining" usage that will never happen.

There will always be the 150,000 cars and buses and trucks. It will never be plesant to sit in an area like that.

Especially with little to no Residents to power and make the park safe.

An alterantive would be to TOTALLY close "30th" st and make it a pedestrian walkaway. (30th is the one between the MFL and the station)

I'm not in some kind of delusion that this isn't an super important pedetrian area...

It's just the totally wrong approach...even so far as "walking and usage patterns" right now.

Everyone is walking to just 30th...not all the way to the the river. The river crossers are staying on the north side then go NW into the entrance.

WHere's the usage?

Oh it's a build it and they will come logic at work again.

Especially with the massive Penn Park a block south...

[eldondre]

I'm glad we are building all this for the thousands who live there and will not leave all of this totally unused outside of 7-9 and 5-6
Right?
I'm sure this will be as heavily used as similar transit only commercial areas. Just look how packed Dilworth Plaza is at 9 PM!
Right...andother case of people "imagining" usage that will never happen.
There will always be the 150,000 cars and buses and trucks. It will never be plesant to sit in an area like that.
Especially with little to no Residents to power and make the park safe. An alterantive would be to TOTALLY close "30th" st and make it a pedestrian walkaway. (30th is the one between the MFL and the station).I'm not in some kind of delusion that this isn't an super important pedetrian area...
It's just the totally wrong approach...even so far as "walking and usage patterns" right now.
Everyone is walking to just 30th...not all the way to the the river. The river crossers are staying on the north side then go NW into the entrance.
WHere's the usage?
Oh it's a build it and they will come logic at work again.
Especially with the massive Penn Park a block south...

many cross 30th st to the station. the people doing so are coming from both the el and the job centers nearby. If that's what you meant, then I agree with you. as for the granite benches, it's not bad. the station is in use 24 hours a day and does see use on weekends. that said, I don't see why they need to do both sides of the street. simply doing the 30th st side is good enough, and it wouldn't be a bad thing if they added a string of one story shops in the area where the parking was rather than make the whole thing a plaza. there are two important areas...SW and SW approaches to the station and with the western approach (intercity and lucy buses) coming in third. Penn Park is another wasted opportunity. they put the hospital stuff further south and put athletic fields close to the station. mind boggling, and these are ivy leaguers. still, I'll welcome the shade (though an artificial canopy would work just was well as trees.

[lewblum]

I'm glad we are building all this for the thousands who live there and will not leave all of this totally unused outside of 7-9 and 5-6

blah
blah
blah

So you're saying you rather 30th St to continue to look like sh|t.

This is a gateway son. First impressions are huge.

Think about how incredible it is to exit Penn Station or Union Station.
Now think about how unimpressive it is to exit 30th St.
Many tourists train hop up the NE Corridor.
Tourism = $$$
This is investment into the image of our City.
Plus their rebuilding the bridge work. So why the hell not?

And do you not buy into the concept of TOD?
Private investment in TOD requires public investment in infrastructure, including open space.
With a secondary goal of creating dense development on both sides of the river so there's less of a psychological barrier (think Chicago River).

And the Penn Park parallel is off base. It's a privately owned athletic field...30 feet below street level.

[brucewmcc]

they put the hospital stuff further south and put athletic fields close to the station. mind boggling, and these are ivy leaguers. still, I'll welcome the shade (though an artificial canopy would work just was well as trees.

You must be new. The commitment to the medical complex being further south dates to 1832, when the decision was made to move the Blockley Almshouse from Center City to what is now the vicinity of 34th St. & Civic Center Blvd. Old Blockley later became Philadelphia General Hospital and the medical complex (HUP, CHOP, and the more recent additions) developed in the same area.

Penn didn't move to the neighborhood until almost 40 years after the Blockley Almshouse, so perhaps even Ivy Leaguers can be forgiven for not configuring things differently. More information is at Blockley.

I'll let you do the research to inform yourself on the the much more recent history of the postal lands purchased and transformed by Penn.

[desolate]

So you're saying you rather 30th St to continue to look like sh|t.

This is a gateway son. First impressions are huge.

Think about how incredible it is to exit Penn Station or Union Station.
Now think about how unimpressive it is to exit 30th St.
Many tourists train hop up the NE Corridor.
Tourism = $$$
This is investment into the image of our City.
Plus their rebuilding the bridge work. So why the hell not?

And do you not buy into the concept of TOD?
Private investment in TOD requires public investment in infrastructure, including open space.
With a secondary goal of creating dense development on both sides of the river so there's less of a psychological barrier (think Chicago River).

And the Penn Park parallel is off base. It's a privately owned athletic field...30 feet below street level.

It's a gateway for all inbound traffic from everything West of Broad as well.

You have to share.

I never once said you shouldn't help the area. I think you should close 30th Street itself to all traffic to make it safer.

But you can't ignore that this is THE most important highway area in Center City.

The barriers is THE DISTANCE ITSELF... not what's along it.

Just like the Art Museum...it's just far from City Hall. All the cafes and bike lanes in the world won't make it closer.

and 30th is a gateway.

for everyone, cars, people, trains...


and Penn Park is a PUBLIC PARK with semi-public recreation fields.

TOD is a theorry that only works in high wealth, high residential areas.

The Main Line is a highly successful TOD.

North Philly Station will be a terrific failure of TOD.

and no one lives near 30th, and won't.

So you're building all of this for about 4 hours of use.


All while every single light is blown out and borken on the corner of Schuylkill Ave and Market St.

So ther'es you're gateway, broken and unmaintained after only a couple years of expensive new lighting.

This will be the same thing, just like Dilworth, which was built on the same Logic...and is now being replaced...on the same failed logic.


People make the activity... not forced use by blowing millions on parks where no one would naturally be.