Is West Philly the Next Center City?

[rojnish]

Speaking of U City progress, does anyone know if the IRS is inhabiting the Old Post Office Building on Schuylkill and Market yet? I see activity there, but it doesn't seem like enough activity for the 5,000 employees that were slated to be housed there.

[billy ross]

The River is a little over a block long/wide.

If you think a single block is hurting connectivity...


It's more that institutions line the river, along with an active freight line and lots of land banking on the Center City side.

If anything, The Schuylkill River is almost "invisible" like the highway, to anyone crossing from u City to Center City.


Not every part of the city can be "active" 24/7. Some areas reserved for things like massive train stations, PECO HQ's, Central Post Offices.

What to do with the huge train switchyard? The fact that you have up to 4-6 blocks of just education structures and hospitals.


These are the things that keep you from 24/7 "city life".

Having a transient student population with limited funds... they aren't going to walk all over to use restaurants. They may just stick to safe "campus" which really doesn't start for them until 36th.

Lots of things contribute to some areas dying at night.

Mostly what causes the division is the fact that the roads were raised way above grade, and the grade level hasn't been adjusted, yet. When the roads continue as bridges until well into West Philly the cumulative effect of the separations takes a huge toll.

[billy ross]

Look at our highways. Where are the highways next to slums that aren't fully industrial. Large biz needs access.

Even you're cafes need sysco deliveries.

Parkside and points west have great access to I-76 via the Girard and Montgomery exits.

[billy ross]

But they don't go east, which is the issue. Most of Drexel's life is either using Penn's campus or Lancaster Ave. They won't walk down to 30th normally because they tend to live NW of it by several blocks.

I don't get why people think every area of the city should be "24/7" activity.

There's only so many people and dollars.

Activate 30th and what pays the price? Lancaster? Walnut?

It's not a zero sum game. Philly could easily handle another 1/4 million people. I even think that we could handle another million. That would get us to where Brooklyn is now, population-wise, and BKLN is only about half of our size. As you (hopefully intelligently) add those people, you add life, and vitality. The city being 1.5 million and the region being 6 million aren't givens. They can and will change.

Adding (placing?) vitality around 30th Street Station would be an enormous plus for the city. It's the natural location for Center City to grow into, not Girard Avenue and Washington Avenue, where the growth is happening now.

[ArcticSplash]

It's not a zero sum game. Philly could easily handle another 1/4 million people. I even think that we could handle another million. That would get us to where Brooklyn is now, population-wise, and BKLN is only about half of our size. As you (hopefully intelligently) add those people, you add life, and vitality. The city being 1.5 million and the region being 6 million aren't givens. They can and will change.

Adding (placing?) vitality around 30th Street Station would be an enormous plus for the city. It's the natural location for Center City to grow into, not Girard Avenue and Washington Avenue, where the growth is happening now.

Pfft there's plenty of reasons for CC to expand and grow up Broad past the Inquirer building to Temple's campus. What keeps it from happening are property squatters from known deadbeat civics like SGCDC and the RDA, plus it's more desirable to expand in a geographically inert area than push into an area that has a known crime problem.

But the funny thing is, Penn already proved there are several gentrification formulas for rapidly turning around blocks. Penn Alexander erases blight through reverse osmosis. Meredith, etc...

Combine the transformation power of coveted school catchments with job creation, and blight wipes away like spraying 4-0-9 on a grease spot.

[billy ross]

Maybe 60 years ago. Of the three, only Logan has any blocks that are more than shadows of their former selves.

There are some surprisingly pleasant, intact blocks in Nicetown. They're not the rule, but they're there. Time has stood still on those blocks.

[billy ross]

Pfft there's plenty of reasons for CC to expand and grow up Broad past the Inquirer building to Temple's campus. What keeps it from happening are property squatters from known deadbeat civics like SGCDC and the RDA, plus it's more desirable to expand in a geographically inert area than push into an area that has a known crime problem.

But the funny thing is, Penn already proved there are several gentrification formulas for rapidly turning around blocks. Penn Alexander erases blight through reverse osmosis. Meredith, etc...

Combine the transformation power of coveted school catchments with job creation, and blight wipes away like spraying 4-0-9 on a grease spot.

I'm not saying that it's unnatural for the redevelopment to go north and south of CC. I am saying that it's more natural for it to fill in the dead zone immediately west of CC, though. There is precious little buffer there between the redeveloped zone and the undeveloped zone, which isn't the case along the northern and southern boundaries of the redevelopment of Greater Center City. The main reason it hasn't happened yet is the overly concentrated ownership of land around 30th St, which makes it hard for the kind of spontaneous, organic redevelopment to happen like is happening presently west of Temple and south of South, combined with the chasm that the weird grade issues cause. I am shocked that Penn isn't bringing Penn Park up to grade. They'll need to do so eventually, but I guess they'll end up doing it one building at a time. They can't leave a submerged basin separating themselves from Center City.

I do agree that Adam Smith's invisible hand is mind-bogglingly efficient at removing blight given sufficient demand, and that demand can be stimulated through establishing and maintaining a coveted school catchment area. I am extremely hopeful that our new governor understands this market-driven magic and that he will use it to his advantage. He seems to get it. Note his moves to reinforce charters and vouchers at the expense of the PSD. Our Soviet approach to redevelopment, paying for monolithic and ineffective bureaucracies like the RDA and the PSD, is silly and needs to go away. I believe that these organizations will fade away, in a way probably more gradual than the future of the PA State Store system, which is another centralized holdover whose future is bleak.

[billy ross]

Outlaw, I wasn't trying to knock North Philly, not architecturally anyway. It was a direct response. I was referring to the organic, free-range chicken in every pot and the Prius/Volvo in every garage in a wide swath of West Philly. (Well, no garages, but I was in the moment.) There are quite a few areas in North Philly that were beautiful but a half century of social and economic decay has left them in shambles. Some of them are not so far gone that they couldn't be turned around (both architecturally and socio-economically). The trick is finding the people to do the work and take the risk, and I think in most cases it isn't going to happen. I bought a literal crack house in West Philly, fixed it up and live in it with my family. It's great but it took a lot of work and some risk. If I didn't have a wife and kids I would contemplate Strawberry Mansion, but that's the rub. If one doesn't feel safe to have their family in a neighborhood the neighborhood is on deep trouble.

My cousin and his wife bought their home immediately north of Strawberry Mansion, at 35th and Indiana. It would be an easy walk to the Mansion from his place, but I doubt he's ever done it. He loves living there - it's super-quiet, parking is a breeze, he has great access all over the city, and he has great neighbors. His property taxes are comically low, lower than almost anywhere in the USA. They just had a baby. He's a little nervous about when his daughter gets older (she's 8 months old now), but I sort of figure that by the time she's old enough to be social the neighborhood should be more of a family destination; the houses are large, with great yards. There's very little traffic, and parking is a breeze. These things are all important to new moms. In addition, the streets are fairly flat, which is a consideration if you live around here and you don't want your kids flying out into traffic on their wheeled toys.

Where I and my family live is extremely fancy and extremely family-friendly. On the city's grid we're at 31st and Butler, say, or Pike, not far at all from Strawberry Mansion. It used to be that poineering Mt. Airy families would sponge off of Chestnut Hill. As Mt. Airy has gathered strength as a family-friendly destination now Germantown is sponging off of it for family activities. I see nothing which would prevent that from happening with Strawberry Mansion pioneers sponging off of the family-friendly activities in East Falls. Where I live used to be a huge destination for gays and childless couples. Of late there's been a huge baby boom in these parts. Our fields for little league and soccer are two blocks from Ridge and Allegheny, easily accessible from Strawberry Mansion, and the enrollment and socioeconomic status of the kids there have both been skyrocketing (but the increased mix of rich kids has increased socioeconomic diversity, not been at the expense of diversity).

[eldondre]

id rather live in tioga than strawberry mansion. of i jad the money to buy ten properties id consider sm but movong my family there? forget it. there are projects between sm and east falls right on ridge.

[billy ross]

id rather live in tioga than strawberry mansion. of i jad the money to buy ten properties id consider sm but movong my family there? forget it. there are projects between sm and east falls right on ridge.

Most things are done by chipping away at the edges of them. Very few things in the world are effected by a 'grand projet' methodology. It is in the 'patient accumulation of small victories' that seemingly impossible tasks are accomplished. There are stretches of the Mansion off of Lehigh which seem acceptable to me from a QOL point of view. As Ridge and Allegheny firms up, I see people pushing down into that stretch immediately south of the cemetaries.

A renovated three storey twin on Allegheny came up for sale on Thursday a week ago. It went under contract six days later on Wednesday of last week, for what sounds like close to asking, and for a price right in the lower end of the range you're looking in. It'll finally comp out, too, because of all of the rehabs on Sudgen's Row, at least one of which has gone to closing. Things are happening there. The buyer is a concert pianist. What real estate bust?,

The little PHA piece at Ridge and Huntingdon is to me not a negative for that area. I haven't seen any problems emanating from those apartments. I particularly like the stretch around Ridge and Cumberland and the few blocks immediately east of that point. The homes aren't grand, but they're pleasant, as are the streetscapes. With Fairmount Park finally getting its act together and connecting Strawberry Mansion to the regional trail network I only see things getting better there, not worse.

[FourS]

As I said, I would contemplate Strawberry Mansion if my family situation were different but not as is. Would you want to go out on a stroll with twp little kids? I like good coffee shops and interesting restaurants too. They may eventually come to SM, but not for a long time. West Philly has had them for at least a decade. Is there even a decent grocery store nearby?

I'm sure there is parking. Most of the neighbors can't afford cars. I don't own a car and drive so rarely it's a non-issue. My wife and I do zipcar and car share and I doubt there are too many (if any) pods up that way. We're city-folk and don't drive everywhere, something we can actually do in West Philly. We walk and have both the El and trolleys (and buses). I hope that SM turns around but getting that critical mass will be very challenging.

[eldondre]

i hear ya fours. billy is.bullish from afar. sm has lots of problems and you cam see how long the small victories theory is taking in brewerytown which shares demographics. certainly the park area should lead the area since crime is lower there but itll take a while. it doesnt need a big bang but it will take decreases in crime and improvements to the park as well as time.

[billy ross]

As I said, I would contemplate Strawberry Mansion if my family situation were different but not as is. Would you want to go out on a stroll with twp little kids? I like good coffee shops and interesting restaurants too. They may eventually come to SM, but not for a long time. West Philly has had them for at least a decade. Is there even a decent grocery store nearby?

I'm sure there is parking. Most of the neighbors can't afford cars. I don't own a car and drive so rarely it's a non-issue. My wife and I do zipcar and car share and I doubt there are too many (if any) pods up that way. We're city-folk and don't drive everywhere, something we can actually do in West Philly. We walk and have both the El and trolleys (and buses). I hope that SM turns around but getting that critical mass will be very challenging.

I'm not talking about SM per se. I'm talking about the next neighborhood up, the Lower End / poor part of East Falls, aka RAH, aka Ridge and Allegheny. It is in the process of coming together now. As it firms up people will get pushed down into the Mansion. I'm not talking about next month. I'm talking about 5 to 10 years from now.

All of the complaints you have about SM vis a vis walkability and services are just as true for RAH, although at least there it is safe to walk around (but that could just be my comfort level with one neighborhood versus another). Anyone who moves into the Lower End is a person who values easy parking over having services an easy stroll away. They do represent a huge market. Some want to be away from the hustle and bustle, but not too far away. That's the target market there.

[billy ross]

i hear ya fours. billy is.bullish from afar. sm has lots of problems and you cam see how long the small victories theory is taking in brewerytown which shares demographics. certainly the park area should lead the area since crime is lower there but itll take a while. it doesnt need a big bang but it will take decreases in crime and improvements to the park as well as time.

Brewerytown proves the fecklessness of the grand projets method. While Blatstein has been able to pull it off in Northern Liberties, he is the exception that proves the rule. The cookie-cutter crap Westrum built isn't how you build a town. Quite the opposite, it is how you prevent a town from getting built. The biggest conclusion that can be drawn from the agonies that Brewerytown has been experiencing is that attention needs to be paid to ensure that a town's regeneration is interwoven with the fabric of the town and not foisted upon a neighborhood from the outside. Brewerytown today reminds me alot of Fortress Causasian in years gone past, the awful 70's redevelopment around 17th Street or so in what is now SWCC but back then was just the hood, a block square which looks more like the Alamo than a part of any community. Were Brewerytown's redevelopment done in a more seamless way in how it interacts with the surrounding community its success would be much more akin to what is going on in other neighborhoods of late, like SWCC and Templetown, two other former ghettoes which have sprung back nicely.

[Joe_Doherty]

But the funny thing is, Penn already proved there are several gentrification formulas for rapidly turning around blocks. Penn Alexander erases blight through reverse osmosis. Meredith, etc...

The catchment for Penn Alexander was appealing and stable before the school opened. The school didn't turn the area around, but helped fill in some gaps and make the area appealing to more families.

I'm interested to see what the Mastery schools do for their catchments, which are far more depressed than Penn Alexander's catchment. I think Mastery could be a huge boost for Shoemaker's catchment in Germantown.

[Joe_Doherty]

I'm not talking about SM per se. I'm talking about the next neighborhood up, the Lower End / poor part of East Falls, aka RAH, aka Ridge and Allegheny. It is in the process of coming together now. As it firms up people will get pushed down into the Mansion. I'm not talking about next month. I'm talking about 5 to 10 years from now.

All of the complaints you have about SM vis a vis walkability and services are just as true for RAH, although at least there it is safe to walk around (but that could just be my comfort level with one neighborhood versus another). Anyone who moves into the Lower End is a person who values easy parking over having services an easy stroll away. They do represent a huge market. Some want to be away from the hustle and bustle, but not too far away. That's the target market there.

The RAH area will get a huge boost if the former Tasty Baking plant is developed into a desirable shopping plaza.

[billy ross]

The catchment for Penn Alexander was appealing and stable before the school opened. The school didn't turn the area around, but helped fill in some gaps and make the area appealing to more families.

I'm interested to see what the Mastery schools do for their catchments, which are far more depressed than Penn Alexander's catchment. I think Mastery could be a huge boost for Shoemaker's catchment in Germantown.

Pickett. Clarence Pickett was a Quaker who founded the American Friends Service Committee.

[eldondre]

like the walled off naval square? you have drawn some incorrect conclusions. people are moving into.brewerytown its just taking a long time. swcc wasnt small.vistories it was an outright boom. enough time has elapsed but the wave of demand is.weaker and the problems greater. the triangle youre talking about is isolated from sm proper and it seems unlikely there will be any bleed over. why not move east where the neighborhood isnt as bad?

Brewerytown proves the fecklessness of the grand projets method. While Blatstein has been able to pull it off in Northern Liberties, he is the exception that proves the rule. The cookie-cutter crap Westrum built isn't how you build a town. Quite the opposite, it is how you prevent a town from getting built. The biggest conclusion that can be drawn from the agonies that Brewerytown has been experiencing is that attention needs to be paid to ensure that a town's regeneration is interwoven with the fabric of the town and not foisted upon a neighborhood from the outside. Brewerytown today reminds me alot of Fortress Causasian in years gone past, the awful 70's redevelopment around 17th Street or so in what is now SWCC but back then was just the hood, a block square which looks more like the Alamo than a part of any community. Were Brewerytown's redevelopment done in a more seamless way in how it interacts with the surrounding community its success would be much more akin to what is going on in other neighborhoods of late, like SWCC and Templetown, two other former ghettoes which have sprung back nicely.

[caL]

I'm not saying that it's unnatural for the redevelopment to go north and south of CC. I am saying that it's more natural for it to fill in the dead zone immediately west of CC, though. There is precious little buffer there between the redeveloped zone and the undeveloped zone, which isn't the case along the northern and southern boundaries of the redevelopment of Greater Center City. The main reason it hasn't happened yet is the overly concentrated ownership of land around 30th St, which makes it hard for the kind of spontaneous, organic redevelopment to happen like is happening presently west of Temple and south of South, combined with the chasm that the weird grade issues cause.

The plans were there, with the two Cira South towers at 30th and Chestnut/Walnut and Drexel's high-rise hotel/conference center at 30th and Market. All three buildings are on hold, but personally they're all it takes to create a seamless connection along Market, Chesnut, Walnut between CC and UC. Some development on the CC side of Market would be nice.

[billy ross]

like the walled off naval square? you have drawn some incorrect conclusions. people are moving into.brewerytown its just taking a long time. swcc wasnt small.vistories it was an outright boom. enough time has elapsed but the wave of demand is.weaker and the problems greater. the triangle youre talking about is isolated from sm proper and it seems unlikely there will be any bleed over. why not move east where the neighborhood isnt as bad?

In North Philly along the Park there are three vectors of redevelopment. One is coming north out of the "Art Museum Area", and it is a slow slog. Another is coming south out of Ridge and Midvale, and it too is painfully slow, but in my opinion at least not meeting the resistance experienced in Brewerytown. Unfortunately for East Falls, Fairmount is tapped into the great power of Center City below it, whereas we have Manayunk spluttering along behind us. The third vector is heading west out of Temple, and it is a juggernaut. Whether it runs out of steam remains to be seen, but it has been amazingly effective at remaking the area between Broad and 20th. If you say that 29th is the center of the Mansion east-west, and that Suskie is the center of the Mansion north-south, that puts you roughly a mile in three directions from the cavalry, who are on their way, converging on that spot. It'll be interesting to see who gets there first. It's like WWII. Patton and Montgomery were racing against the guys in Italy and the Russians to see who would get to Berlin first. This of course is less strategic, but the market forces are incredibly powerful, and there is a logic to them. Right now the bets need to go with Temple not stopping until it gets to the Park, similar to how Penn broke past its western barriers. However, the history isn't written yet. Still, to me Temple is just reading Penn's playbook and running the same plays, with a few years' delay. So is Drexel.