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  1. #61
    Eastcoast is offline Senior Member
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    What a helpful thread!


    BBQ King, one other thought.

    Given your name I think it best that you remember to check out the local ordinances about open pit fires and/or smokers.

  2. #62
    BBQ KING is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eastcoast View Post
    What a helpful thread!


    BBQ King, one other thought.

    Given your name I think it best that you remember to check out the local ordinances about open pit fires and/or smokers.
    Thanks. I actually "import" from a far away land on a might river that is home to only american king.......

  3. #63
    Eastcoast is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by BBQ KING View Post
    Thanks. I actually "import" from a far away land on a might river that is home to only american king.......

    I see.

    I'm having some of the drier TX fare airlifted back East to my relations.

  4. #64
    Queen Villager is offline Senior Member
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    Not the Main Line, but what about Elkins Park? Pretty neighborhoods and homes, good schools, not a terrible commute.

  5. #65
    billy ross is online now Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Queen Villager View Post
    Not the Main Line, but what about Elkins Park? Pretty neighborhoods and homes, good schools, not a terrible commute.
    I disagree. The wealth in this region is following the Schuylkill River, from the Navy Yard all the way out to Chester County, with a few holes here and there. Still, the nexus of the Navy Yard plus Center City and University City plus Conshohocken/Plymouth Meeting plus King of Prussia / Malvern / Great Valley is a juggernaut. Access to those jobs = increasing wealth. Northeast Philly and its suburbs don't have the jobs base to support wealth growth at this juncture (and sadly Center City doesn't have much jobs growth either), and as a result Lower Bucks and eastern Montgomery County are falling by the wayside. Their business model (commute to industrial jobs in NE Philly or to office jobs in Center City) is broken, with little to no growth, and that part of the Metro hasn't come up with a new one yet. Like it or not, Lower Merion is a part of the Schuylkill Valley strength, and the township's built stock is being renewed nicely. Noone could argue that Conshohocken hasn't adapted to our 'new economy', and it isn't alone in the Schuylkill Valley. Not so Elkins Park, where a less moneyed class is taking over and they can't afford to keep up the great housing stock there - you can see the disinvestment if you just walk around. Similarly, if you just walk around the better towns on the Main Line, one can see the tremendous reinvestment ongoing there, as if money grows on trees. The money is coming from somewhere. Interestingly, Upper Bucks seems to be doing just fine, but I suspect that's driven by commuting to New York and Central Jersey, where there's more wealth (i.e. jobs)

    Sadly, until we fix the jobs picture in Center City, places which were built around commuting to jobs in Center City will continue to wither unless they have come up with other engines of growth. See the fading of Cherry Hill and Eastern Delaware County (which also suffered greatly from deindustrialization - contrast Chester at one end of the Blue Route to Conshy at the other end of the Blue Route). I wouldn't be surprised if as many people commute west from LM as commute east nowadays. When Episcopal Academy decamed from Lower Merion for greener pastures out west they set themselves up to corner a growing market of wealthy families who don't mind writing enormous checks but want their kids to excel. While Episcopal lost the Center City (and the rest of Philly) market, they grabbed the newly wealthy market around the western edge of the Main Line, and they seem to be thriving, if less socioeconomically diverse. Meanwhile the private schools out Elkins Park way struggle.
    Last edited by billy ross; 12-18-2012 at 11:20 AM.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by billy ross View Post
    I disagree. The wealth in this region is following the Schuylkill River, from the Navy Yard all the way out to Chester County, with a few holes here and there. Still, the nexus of the Navy Yard plus Center City and University City plus Conshohocken/Plymouth Meeting plus King of Prussia / Malvern / Great Valley is a juggernaut. Access to those jobs = increasing wealth. Northeast Philly and its suburbs don't have the jobs base to support wealth growth at this juncture (and sadly Center City doesn't have much jobs growth either), and as a result Lower Bucks and eastern Montgomery County are falling by the wayside. Their business model (commute to industrial jobs in NE Philly or to office jobs in Center City) is broken, with little to no growth, and that part of the Metro hasn't come up with a new one yet. Like it or not, Lower Merion is a part of the Schuylkill Valley strength, and the township's built stock is being renewed nicely. Noone could argue that Conshohocken hasn't adapted to our 'new economy', and it isn't alone in the Schuylkill Valley. Not so Elkins Park, where a less moneyed class is taking over and they can't afford to keep up the great housing stock there - you can see the disinvestment if you just walk around. Similarly, if you just walk around the better towns on the Main Line, one can see the tremendous reinvestment ongoing there, as if money grows on trees. The money is coming from somewhere. Interestingly, Upper Bucks seems to be doing just fine, but I suspect that's driven by commuting to New York and Central Jersey, where there's more wealth (i.e. jobs)

    Sadly, until we fix the jobs picture in Center City, places which were built around commuting to jobs in Center City will continue to wither unless they have come up with other engines of growth. See the fading of Cherry Hill and Eastern Delaware County (which also suffered greatly from deindustrialization - contrast Chester at one end of the Blue Route to Conshy at the other end of the Blue Route). I wouldn't be surprised if as many people commute west from LM as commute east nowadays. When Episcopal Academy decamed from Lower Merion for greener pastures out west they set themselves up to corner a growing market of wealthy families who don't mind writing enormous checks but want their kids to excel. While Episcopal lost the Center City (and the rest of Philly) market, they grabbed the newly wealthy market around the western edge of the Main Line, and they seem to be thriving, if less socioeconomically diverse. Meanwhile the private schools out Elkins Park way struggle.
    Good lord but you're a snob.
    I am not the Jackass Whisperer.

  7. #67
    NickleDimer is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by billy ross View Post
    I disagree. The wealth in this region is following the Schuylkill River, from the Navy Yard all the way out to Chester County, with a few holes here and there. Still, the nexus of the Navy Yard plus Center City and University City plus Conshohocken/Plymouth Meeting plus King of Prussia / Malvern / Great Valley is a juggernaut. Access to those jobs = increasing wealth. Northeast Philly and its suburbs don't have the jobs base to support wealth growth at this juncture (and sadly Center City doesn't have much jobs growth either), and as a result Lower Bucks and eastern Montgomery County are falling by the wayside. Their business model (commute to industrial jobs in NE Philly or to office jobs in Center City) is broken, with little to no growth, and that part of the Metro hasn't come up with a new one yet. Like it or not, Lower Merion is a part of the Schuylkill Valley strength, and the township's built stock is being renewed nicely. Noone could argue that Conshohocken hasn't adapted to our 'new economy', and it isn't alone in the Schuylkill Valley. Not so Elkins Park, where a less moneyed class is taking over and they can't afford to keep up the great housing stock there - you can see the disinvestment if you just walk around. Similarly, if you just walk around the better towns on the Main Line, one can see the tremendous reinvestment ongoing there, as if money grows on trees. The money is coming from somewhere. Interestingly, Upper Bucks seems to be doing just fine, but I suspect that's driven by commuting to New York and Central Jersey, where there's more wealth (i.e. jobs)

    Sadly, until we fix the jobs picture in Center City, places which were built around commuting to jobs in Center City will continue to wither unless they have come up with other engines of growth. See the fading of Cherry Hill and Eastern Delaware County (which also suffered greatly from deindustrialization - contrast Chester at one end of the Blue Route to Conshy at the other end of the Blue Route). I wouldn't be surprised if as many people commute west from LM as commute east nowadays. When Episcopal Academy decamed from Lower Merion for greener pastures out west they set themselves up to corner a growing market of wealthy families who don't mind writing enormous checks but want their kids to excel. While Episcopal lost the Center City (and the rest of Philly) market, they grabbed the newly wealthy market around the western edge of the Main Line, and they seem to be thriving, if less socioeconomically diverse. Meanwhile the private schools out Elkins Park way struggle.
    So, only SOME suburbs are gettin' crappy?

  8. #68
    AsYouWere is offline Banned
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hospitalitygirl View Post
    Good lord but you're a snob.
    It's hard work for Billy but somebody's gotta do it. I've always just assumed that half of what he's saying is true but just can't read the entire text as it's too rambling. Still love the man though for the effort but wish it was more concise.

  9. #69
    NickleDimer is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by AsYouWere View Post
    It's hard work for Billy but somebody's gotta do it. I've always just assumed that half of what he's saying is true but just can't read the entire text as it's too rambling. Still love the man though for the effort but wish it was more concise.
    I too enjoy when billy cooks up a batch of his famous contradiction lasagna. So many layers baked together, it's hard hard to make sense of.

  10. #70
    Geno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by billy ross View Post
    I disagree. The wealth in this region is following the Schuylkill River, from the Navy Yard all the way out to Chester County, with a few holes here and there. Still, the nexus of the Navy Yard plus Center City and University City plus Conshohocken/Plymouth Meeting plus King of Prussia / Malvern / Great Valley is a juggernaut. Access to those jobs = increasing wealth. Northeast Philly and its suburbs don't have the jobs base to support wealth growth at this juncture (and sadly Center City doesn't have much jobs growth either), and as a result Lower Bucks and eastern Montgomery County are falling by the wayside. Their business model (commute to industrial jobs in NE Philly or to office jobs in Center City) is broken, with little to no growth, and that part of the Metro hasn't come up with a new one yet. Like it or not, Lower Merion is a part of the Schuylkill Valley strength, and the township's built stock is being renewed nicely. Noone could argue that Conshohocken hasn't adapted to our 'new economy', and it isn't alone in the Schuylkill Valley. Not so Elkins Park, where a less moneyed class is taking over and they can't afford to keep up the great housing stock there - you can see the disinvestment if you just walk around. Similarly, if you just walk around the better towns on the Main Line, one can see the tremendous reinvestment ongoing there, as if money grows on trees. The money is coming from somewhere. Interestingly, Upper Bucks seems to be doing just fine, but I suspect that's driven by commuting to New York and Central Jersey, where there's more wealth (i.e. jobs)

    Sadly, until we fix the jobs picture in Center City, places which were built around commuting to jobs in Center City will continue to wither unless they have come up with other engines of growth. See the fading of Cherry Hill and Eastern Delaware County (which also suffered greatly from deindustrialization - contrast Chester at one end of the Blue Route to Conshy at the other end of the Blue Route). I wouldn't be surprised if as many people commute west from LM as commute east nowadays. When Episcopal Academy decamed from Lower Merion for greener pastures out west they set themselves up to corner a growing market of wealthy families who don't mind writing enormous checks but want their kids to excel. While Episcopal lost the Center City (and the rest of Philly) market, they grabbed the newly wealthy market around the western edge of the Main Line, and they seem to be thriving, if less socioeconomically diverse. Meanwhile the private schools out Elkins Park way struggle.
    Interesting theory, and definitely some truth to it, but Elkins Park is nice. So is Jenkintown. So are lots of other places in the Eastern Montgomery County, NE Philly region.

  11. #71
    BBQ KING is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geno View Post
    Interesting theory, and definitely some truth to it, but Elkins Park is nice. So is Jenkintown. So are lots of other places in the Eastern Montgomery County, NE Philly region.
    Nice areas indeed but I think a tough commute to the Navy Yard?

    Also, saw somewhere else on PS that AVI seems to be settling in around 1.3-1.4% of value.
    I am not sure what philly will say my value is but I am guesinng my taxes will go up.

  12. #72
    Eastcoast is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by BBQ KING View Post
    Nice areas indeed but I think a tough commute to the Navy Yard?

    Also, saw somewhere else on PS that AVI seems to be settling in around 1.3-1.4% of value.
    I am not sure what philly will say my value is but I am guesinng my taxes will go up.
    Valuation: I await the dropping of that particular shoe.

  13. #73
    billy ross is online now Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by BBQ KING View Post
    Nice areas indeed but I think a tough commute to the Navy Yard?

    Also, saw somewhere else on PS that AVI seems to be settling in around 1.3-1.4% of value.
    I am not sure what philly will say my value is but I am guesinng my taxes will go up.
    1.4% of what? We'll see how the numbers come out. I suspect they''ll err in their valuations on the conservative side

  14. #74
    PhillyTex is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Queen Villager View Post
    Not the Main Line, but what about Elkins Park? Pretty neighborhoods and homes, good schools, not a terrible commute.
    Elkins Park is nice but as with other Cheltenham School District communities, you usually get a unique mix of relatively low property values and very steep property taxes. The taxes do help to keep the riff-raff out, the municipal services and schools are excellent, and you get a lot of house for the purchase price. But the flip side is that long after the mortgage is paid off, you're still shelling out property taxes about double the rate of other immediate suburbs with similar levels of cleanliness, quality schools, low crime, decent municipal services, etc. For people who are used to high taxes it's not really an issue but I couldn't stomach it myself.

  15. #75
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    PT: I think you're right on with your assessment of Cheltenham, or at least from what I can tell after moving here this summer.

    After starting our family late in life and having one child approaching school age and another on the way, it was time to give serious consideration to our options. We loved where we lived (Blue Bell Hill) but were not up for all the schooling hardships our friends in the neighborhood were facing.

    After evaluating all our options at length, we decided to leave. Found a big old Victorian in Wyncote for cheap. The high taxes here definitely have depressed prices. For our stage in life, it made perfect sense. Get a lot of house for cheap and pay the high prop taxes. The prop taxes and the 1% income tax are still SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper than school tuition and wage tax would have been. Services here are noticeably better than the city. Neither of us work in Phila proper, so escaping wage tax was a major factor.

    At later points in life, as you mentioned, the higher prop taxes will not look so appealing. We'll worry about that in fifteen years or so.


    Disclaimer aimed at those who wish to argue: I'm not bitter about moving. I loved our old place. I love our new place. Both have benefits and compromises. We stay involved with our friends and neighbors in BBH and continue to raise our families together. We've just expanded our worlds by four miles.

    Jason

    p.s. - For BROSS: BBH was tough to leave and an amazing place. It had to be an amazing house to make us jump, and it landed in our lap. We are fully aware of the unique character and benefits of living in EF/BBH/Germantown.

  16. #76
    billy ross is online now Senior Member
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    Philly pays a terrible price for allowing its schools problem to fester by imposing continual revolutions on a centralilzed, hierarchical system for the past 45 years and counting. I console myself with the thought that we pay less of a price now than we used to as certain schools turn around (with more devolution finally being allowed and even fostered) and other hopeless schools close and new schools open, hopefully with more of an orientation towards excellence. I sincerely hope that ten years from now future yous don't feel that the choices available in Philly are less than would be desired. We have friends who sold their mansion in Mt. Airy to buy another mansion in Germantown (they like being house poor, making money/wealth fixing up the houses they live in then selling them). They were seriously looking at the burbs before their kids got into ICS. Every kid in Philly should have the opportunity to go to a quality school where they are there by choice, not because they're forced to be there, and I sincerely hope that we get there, the sooner the better.

    I think the wage tax in Cheltenham will go up as we go forward, from its present 1%. They have already raised property taxes to the breaking point there, and they are still desperate for money, so there aren't many other options. It'll be interesting to see what transpires.

    Wyncote has some nice housing stock. I am sure you got an amazing house. They're not making those anymore, so they're a precious asset.

    Quote Originally Posted by JasonMcElroy View Post
    PT: I think you're right on with your assessment of Cheltenham, or at least from what I can tell after moving here this summer.

    After starting our family late in life and having one child approaching school age and another on the way, it was time to give serious consideration to our options. We loved where we lived (Blue Bell Hill) but were not up for all the schooling hardships our friends in the neighborhood were facing.

    After evaluating all our options at length, we decided to leave. Found a big old Victorian in Wyncote for cheap. The high taxes here definitely have depressed prices. For our stage in life, it made perfect sense. Get a lot of house for cheap and pay the high prop taxes. The prop taxes and the 1% income tax are still SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper than school tuition and wage tax would have been. Services here are noticeably better than the city. Neither of us work in Phila proper, so escaping wage tax was a major factor.

    At later points in life, as you mentioned, the higher prop taxes will not look so appealing. We'll worry about that in fifteen years or so.


    Disclaimer aimed at those who wish to argue: I'm not bitter about moving. I loved our old place. I love our new place. Both have benefits and compromises. We stay involved with our friends and neighbors in BBH and continue to raise our families together. We've just expanded our worlds by four miles.

    Jason

    p.s. - For BROSS: BBH was tough to leave and an amazing place. It had to be an amazing house to make us jump, and it landed in our lap. We are fully aware of the unique character and benefits of living in EF/BBH/Germantown.
    Last edited by billy ross; 12-21-2012 at 01:35 PM.

  17. #77
    PhillyTex is offline Senior Member
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    If I had multiple kids to consider, I'd be all over Cheltenham!

  18. #78
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    Ahh yes, a level headed post from a good person who left Philly. No white flight, no chicken little BS - just honest facts. Almost all of the people I know who left Philly are like Jason - and I know 100s.

    Quote Originally Posted by JasonMcElroy View Post
    PT: I think you're right on with your assessment of Cheltenham, or at least from what I can tell after moving here this summer.

    After starting our family late in life and having one child approaching school age and another on the way, it was time to give serious consideration to our options. We loved where we lived (Blue Bell Hill) but were not up for all the schooling hardships our friends in the neighborhood were facing.

    After evaluating all our options at length, we decided to leave. Found a big old Victorian in Wyncote for cheap. The high taxes here definitely have depressed prices. For our stage in life, it made perfect sense. Get a lot of house for cheap and pay the high prop taxes. The prop taxes and the 1% income tax are still SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper than school tuition and wage tax would have been. Services here are noticeably better than the city. Neither of us work in Phila proper, so escaping wage tax was a major factor.

    At later points in life, as you mentioned, the higher prop taxes will not look so appealing. We'll worry about that in fifteen years or so.


    Disclaimer aimed at those who wish to argue: I'm not bitter about moving. I loved our old place. I love our new place. Both have benefits and compromises. We stay involved with our friends and neighbors in BBH and continue to raise our families together. We've just expanded our worlds by four miles.

    Jason

    p.s. - For BROSS: BBH was tough to leave and an amazing place. It had to be an amazing house to make us jump, and it landed in our lap. We are fully aware of the unique character and benefits of living in EF/BBH/Germantown.
    Like PS on Facebook!

  19. #79
    NickTheCage is offline Banned
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    Quote Originally Posted by BBQ KING View Post
    Thanks. Love Wayne but too far out.

    Wayne to the navy yard seems like 45m or more. Too far to navy yard
    for those days that commute will be needed. Also kids are in east falls
    school. Would like to maintain EF school as an option but add the option of "mainline" lower Marion schools
    for the future (almostly entirely for financial reasons).
    We moved from Manhattan to Bucks county (Upper Makefield) and I couldn't be happier. Excellent schools, quality of life, easy access to Philly, etc. We looked and thought hard abt the Main line area but I needed easy access to NY/NJ and Ct plus there were way to many yentas for my taste.

    If you have any questions I would be more than happy to answer so let'em fly.

  20. #80
    AsYouWere is offline Banned
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    Quote Originally Posted by NickTheCage View Post
    We moved from Manhattan to Bucks county (Upper Makefield) and I couldn't be happier. Excellent schools, quality of life, easy access to Philly, etc. We looked and thought hard abt the Main line area but I needed easy access to NY/NJ and Ct plus there were way to many yentas for my taste.

    If you have any questions I would be more than happy to answer so let'em fly.
    In fear my question may seem untoward could you describe the slut landscape up there in the woods and what they accept as gifts especially here at Christmas? Does a half gallon of Wild Turkey get one assimilated?

    Thanks so much!

 

 
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