The Suburbs Are Gettin' Crappy

[ArcticSplash]

As crime drops in big cities, inner-ring towns see a very different story

[JBL]

Everybody wants to move up into a new home with more space and a yard...even pieces of trash and criminals.

Watch and see what today's "active adult" neighborhoods in the 'burbs become. Once their numbers start winding down, baby boomers are going to have to remove that age restriction and open the community up (lest it be burdened with dozens of empty homes with no one [read: 55+] to fill them). They're going to be the cheapest in the area--small homes, small yards, tight communities--and they'll become the new "hood" in less than a generation.

[seand]

I was wondering what area in Upper Darby was designated "the roughest" for the new community police station.

[billy ross]

I was wondering what area in Upper Darby was designated "the roughest" for the new community police station.

Stonehurst?

[eldondre]

the title of the thread is offbase. it talks about specific suburbs, not all of them. cheltenham and upper darby are high tax places that offer little benefit over other, cheaper suburbs, and so they have lower priced homes.

[seand]

the title of the thread is offbase. it talks about specific suburbs, not all of them. cheltenham and upper darby are high tax places that offer little benefit over other, cheaper suburbs, and so they have lower priced homes.

The article was specific to inner ring suburbs but only focused on Upper Darby and Bensalem. Everybody quoted in the article tried to argue it was prblem facing all inner ring suburbs.

You could flip it around and say a lot of lower mid and even poor people are moving out to the cheaper inner ring suburbs from the cities and bringing city problems with them, which then causes the municipality to raise taxes to pay for more services to cover that higher crime and also older/poorer mix, more akin to the city's population.

Maybe its a little bit of a chicken and egg.

[ArcticSplash]

the title of the thread is offbase. it talks about specific suburbs, not all of them. cheltenham and upper darby are high tax places that offer little benefit over other, cheaper suburbs, and so they have lower priced homes.

Kensalem isn't high tax but it's going downhill.

[billy ross]

the title of the thread is offbase. it talks about specific suburbs, not all of them. cheltenham and upper darby are high tax places that offer little benefit over other, cheaper suburbs, and so they have lower priced homes.

The ghetto is moving away from Center City and out towards or into the burbs (i.e. to the county lines). The inner ring burbs like Pennsauken are feeling the brunt of this. The far suburbs are still quite wealthy. Essentially the ghetto is the doughnut. The hole in the doughnut, Center City, is getting bigger and more wealthy. The outer edge of the doughnut is moving out and eating into the burbs. If you're far enough out into the burbs (say, Radnor) you're sufficiently buffered that the outward movement of the doughnut doesn't really affect you. In addition, the doughnut isn't moving out evenly. On both sides of the wealthy Schuylkill Valley/River the townships which border Philadelphia County aren't being harmed by this expanding doughnut. I'm not sure whether that's because NW Philly is a salient and really belongs in Montgomery County or because MontCo sticks into Philly and so Lower Merion et al sort of belong in Philly.

[seand]

The ghetto is moving away from Center City and out towards or into the burbs. The inner ring burbs like Pennsauken are feeling the brunt of this. The far suburbs are still quite wealthy. Essentially the ghetto is the doughnut. The hole in the doughnut, Center City, is getting bigger and more wealthy. The outer edge of the doughnut is moving out and eating into the burbs. If you're far enough out into the burbs (say, Radnor) you're sufficiently buffered that the outward movement of the doughnut doesn't really affect you.

I've also heard this described as the "tree ring" theory of decay and urban renewal.

[thegreattwizz]

Kensalem isn't high tax but it's going downhill.

Yup, lets be sure to blame the casino.

[billy ross]

The article was specific to inner ring suburbs but only focused on Upper Darby and Bensalem. Everybody quoted in the article tried to argue it was prblem facing all inner ring suburbs.

You could flip it around and say a lot of lower mid and even poor people are moving out to the cheaper inner ring suburbs from the cities and bringing city problems with them, which then causes the municipality to raise taxes to pay for more services to cover that higher crime and also older/poorer mix, more akin to the city's population.

Maybe its a little bit of a chicken and egg.

And Cheltenham and Abington.

Bensalem plus Abington plus Cheltenham plus Upper Darby represent a huge swath of the city's border, especially if you conclude, reasonably, that the Delaware River presents too much of a border for neighborhood trends to jump across (much larger than the Poquessing Creek or Cobb's Creek), and so does Philadelphia International Airport. Those two take up a huge amount of Philadelphia's borders, and they are Maginot Lines that must be gone around and not across.

[PhilaCap]

Misleading headline for sure. Crime is up in Upper Darby, that's the only takeaway I see from this. More fear-mongering.

[hammersklavier]

Keep in mind, Billy, that the Main Line is the core of our region's "favored quarter", the favored quarter being a trend seen in most major urban areas and not at all limited to North America. (For example, London's favored quarter is to the west, and Paris' southwest, towards Versailles.) Northwest Philly is part of this favored quarter system.

What has always surprised me is that the neighborhoods around Fairmount Park are so poor. The reverse should be true, going by the favored-quarter paradigm: they are the links between the urban core and favored-quarter spread.

Upper Darby has a key undervalued asset: the 69th St. transportation center. A major link between city and suburban transit networks, people setting up around it would have excellent transit access to around half of the region's job markets, including two of its most important (CC, KoP).

[seand]

And Cheltenham and Abington.

Bensalem plus Abington plus Cheltenham plus Upper Darby represent a huge swath of the city's border, especially if you conclude, reasonably, that the Delaware River presents too much of a border for neighborhood trends to jump across (much larger than the Poquessing Creek or Cobb's Creek), and so does Philadelphia International Airport. Those two take up a huge amount of Philadelphia's borders, and they are Maginot Lines that must be gone around and not across.

On th eother hand somebody already mentioned Pennsauken. I don't know much about South Jersey but would Gloucester also reflect this trend?

[ArcticSplash]

Jenkintown schools go into lockdown over murder suspect that was running around town, loose:
Police: Jenkintown lockdown lifted; suspect jumped in front of train | 6abc.com

Sounds like a place I want to raise my kids! I can see why parents sit out in the cold/rain lined up trying to put their kids into Penn Alexander.

[Marquis]

More like beef ring.

[eldondre]

And Cheltenham and Abington.

Bensalem plus Abington plus Cheltenham plus Upper Darby represent a huge swath of the city's border, especially if you conclude, reasonably, that the Delaware River presents too much of a border for neighborhood trends to jump across (much larger than the Poquessing Creek or Cobb's Creek), and so does Philadelphia International Airport. Those two take up a huge amount of Philadelphia's borders, and they are Maginot Lines that must be gone around and not across.

abington seems to be doing honestly. fox chase is holding its own as well, within the city's borders.
Arctic-jenkintown is some high crime dump? cmon, you're just fear mongering now. it's a fine place to raise kids, there's crime in spruce hill as well.

the tree ring theory works since trees (and their rngs) are often misshapen. upper darby is struggling but what separates it from similar locations in the city itself is that it's in a suburb. the difference between overbrook and merion are greater than between overbrook and upper darby. upper darby has poor highway access, awful traffic, and limited transit to anywhere that matters (except the city itself).

You could flip it around and say a lot of lower mid and even poor people are moving out to the cheaper inner ring suburbs from the cities and bringing city problems with them, which then causes the municipality to raise taxes to pay for more services to cover that higher crime and also older/poorer mix, more akin to the city's population.

yes, once the trend starts (due to declining home prices) it can be difficult to reverse. on the other hand, cheltenham is reporting that half of all crimes are being committed by philadelphia residents...that reflects the declining status of outer ring philadelphia neighborhoods in certain areas. delco and cheltenham bear the brunt of that, lafayette hill borders chestnut hill, lower merion wynnefield which, while not trouble free, hasn't been in free fall. it also appears that the decline in stenton/cedarbrook may be spilling into east mt airy. I'd also point out that some suburbs are finding that spending matters. a lot of suburbs have spent lavishly on school districts for fields, facilities, etc and now owe large amounts of debt. in any event, generalizations are inherently inaccurate, which is why the thread title is inaccurate.

[NJbound]

On th eother hand somebody already mentioned Pennsauken. I don't know much about South Jersey but would Gloucester also reflect this trend?

Crime has decreased in Pennsauken over the last 10 years actually.

Pennsauken Township Crime Statistics : New Jersey ( NJ ) - CityRating.com

and Abington slightly up over the same time

Abington Township Crime Statistics : Pennsylvania ( PA ) - CityRating.com

[3rd&Brown]

Abington is a lovely place to live, with relatively low taxes. To suggest otherwise is disingenuous. Abington has enclaves including the best parts of Glenside, Roslyn, and the really nice parts of Elkins Park. I mean, come on.

Abington and Haverford (Twp) Delco are probably the two most similar, large, close(r) in towns which have stood the test of time, in spite of their aging infrastructures. I don't know what to attribute this to, but if anything, they're both getting better with age. Maybe it's because their housing stocks were built to last...largely masonry and timeless, on tree-lined streets and sidewalks with access to trains and Center City. Maybe it's because they both have decent commercial bases. Maybe it's because they both have well-above average, if not very good schools, in some cases.

I suspect that it's a little bit of all of the above. If anything, I wish more towns would aspire to be these towns. They're not without their problems or even poverty, but they can manage it because there are so many other positives which attract tax-payers who can more than adequately compensate for the needs of the few poor who do live there. Frankly, it's an ideal that many other towns and pockets of our region should aspire to.

I often think that a few changes here and there in our region's political and geographic organization could make a world of difference in terms of managing the spread of poverty, while stabilizing communities.

Upper Darby is not without it's problems. But it's notably more stable, in part because of it's economic diversity, than neighboring Lansdowne, which has a gem of a housing stock. Imagine if Lansdowne Borough were allowed to merge with the Upper Darby School District. Immediately, the housing values in Lansdowne would stabilize, if not increase (I believe, dramatically) in value. Lansdowne is largely co-terminous with the nicest parts of Drexel Hill (Aronimink and Drexel Park), where houses regularly sell for close to $300,000. Just across Marshall Rd in Lansdowne, where the houses are just as nice on similarly leafy and picturesque streets, houses sell for half. What if the same thing happened to East Lansdowne, which isn't nearly as nice, but still has a solid housing stock?

What if Primos and Secane and even Aldan were allowed, over time, to merge with either the Springfield, Ridley, or Interboro school districts? Again, nice housing stock, failed school systems. All of the latter are universally better run, managed, and perform. Maybe the remaining towns in that segment of Delco merge into a combined William-Penn/Southeast Delco school district (Yeadon, Darby, Folcroft, Sharon Hill)?

What if the most-deindustrialized parts of Chester were annexed by neighboring towns and districts? This would be the most difficult part to manage, logistically and PR-wise, but Chester has enough issues managing Chester. To be frank, this could destabilize neighboring communities, but it could also strengthen that part of the region. The northern part of Chester Twp is largely vacant and industrial. It could be annexed by Aston. The SW parts of Chester below Highland Avenue, ditto. These could be annexed by Trainer and re-purposed as industrial sites with access to the river. The northern parts, Nether Providence...this could stabilize the neighborhoods north of Widener. The industrial area north and east of the Prison/Casino. Eddystone.

I know it's pie in the sky...but some of those small towns don't have any where else to grow. They're built out. Giving them land from Chester (since much of it is vacant) could eliminate that problem. But they're also in comparably prosperous, well-managed towns with pretty good school districts and decent tax bases.

[Naveen]

Keep in mind, Billy, that the Main Line is the core of our region's "favored quarter", the favored quarter being a trend seen in most major urban areas and not at all limited to North America. (For example, London's favored quarter is to the west, and Paris' southwest, towards Versailles.) Northwest Philly is part of this favored quarter system.

What has always surprised me is that the neighborhoods around Fairmount Park are so poor. The reverse should be true, going by the favored-quarter paradigm: they are the links between the urban core and favored-quarter spread.

I'm surprised by that as well, and I don't think it will be long before that's no longer the case, at least on the northeast side of the Schuylkill. Now that the Art Museum/Fairmount area has gentrified and the trend has crossed Girard into Brewerytown, I see Strawberry Mansion turning too. No, not in the immediate future, but I see it as a long-term inevitability. (I've been saying that if you had a place like Strawberry Mansion in New York or San Francisco there is no way it wouldn't be living up to it's name.)

The Main Line will always stay what it is, and the population growth and high wealth of Chester County (now wealthier than MontCo!) will only reinforce that.