The Suburbs Are Gettin' Crappy

[Sphilly19145]

Where whites are the minority, the neighborhood goes bad. It's simple to figure out. They want our life styles but don't have the pride or persistence to obtain it and want it just handed to them. Even when it is, they ruin it.

[randomuser]

Despite your cute anecdotes, they're just that...anecdotes. Lansdowne and CH together would have 17,000 residents. Way too few to create a large enough school district to be sustainable, again, particularly in an environment where government wants districts to share services and/or consolidate. Nobody is going to approve of another dinky district that will ultimately just be under-funded and over-taxed. Sustainable districts usually have at least 30,000 residents to produce enough economy of scale to provide the service and sufficient number of children to populate the school district.

Cute anecdotes? Dinky? Who the f*ck do you think you're talking to, kid? That's my god damn neighborhood, one you've probably never even stepped foot in (driving through does not count) so watch your damn mouth.

Now that that's out of the way. You seriously think two densely populated places like Clifton Heights and Lansdowne couldn't have 30,000 people between them? They already did at one point and they currently have between 15-20,000, in a time when many families have moved out or gotten older and haven't been fully replaced yet. People already move to Lansdowne, despite the fact that it's in a bad school district. You seriously think a solid school district without the former problems of other ones wouldn't be able to draw people to the area? Clifton Heights may not be more than a working class borough but Lansdowne would easily help to stabilize the two if they were paired together. Neither are ghettos and there's no reason they need to become ghetto. This is the 21st Century. Neighborhoods aren't built around industries anymore. People already move to Lansdowne for the houses, the community, and other reasons, but many more who might move there bypass it for the fact that it's in a bad school district and St. Charles is no longer there, nor is St. Phils. Either they send their kids to an expensive private school, find a charter somewhere, or send them to William Penn. People who might stay there otherwise when they have kids instead move elsewhere because of things like this. Sure, Lansdowne may have some not-so-great places close to it in Yeadon and others but it borders a nice part of Drexel Hill on one side and working class Clifton Heights on another. Clifton Heights borders nothing but either solid or potentially solid areas, so it's not in any kind of position that it needs to become a ghetto unless Lansdowne deteriorates and Aldan goes down too. Clifton Heights' problems, up until recent years, have always been internal and those of any post-industrial place. Neither of those things can be said about the majority of struggling areas in Delco. Clifton Heights is one of the few that can be saved.

Here's the way it could work. Announce that in the next five years, Clifton Heights and Lansdowne will break off from their current districts and consolidate to form their own brand new district. I guarantee you that this would cause a good number of families to choose Lansdowne. People care about schools more than anything when looking at an area, and Lansdowne already has positive going for it to begin with. This will further stabilize Lansdowne and cause people to look across the borough line at Clifton Heights as an affordable alternative. Something people probably don't know if they've never been there is that Clifton Heights actually has some nice houses. In fact, people who grew up there pre-GI Bill will tell you how great Clifton Heights used to be, a typical mill/factory town with streams and creeks and woods (all of which it still has) and how Warner West ruined it all when he built street after street of rowhouses. This video gives a pretty good idea of some of the housing stock in Clifton Heights http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lO5yb...eature=related On top of that, both Lansdowne and Clifton Heights are full of nature, have multiple parks, many amenities, better communities than more suburban places, are very kid and family-oriented, and most importantly are both close to but are also connected to University City, Center City, and elsewhere by train, trolley, and bus. You can take a train from Clifton Heights and be at 30th street in 10-15 minutes. That's part of the reason why some people who work in University City and Center City choose to live in Lansdowne.

People will never move to Clifton Heights in order to go to the UD school district because there are much nicer parts of the township they could live in and be in that district without having to live in an outside borough. However, if Clifton Heights is one of only two boroughs within a brand new, solid school district then people will move there to be in that school district. This will further stabilize Primos and the bordering parts of Drexel Hill, which will further stabilize Pilgrim Gardens and Aronimink, which will further stabilize the rest of Drexel Hill and the rest of Upper Darby, which will further insulate the western suburbs from the ghetto. Maybe places like Aldan and Secane can't be stabilized fully because of some of the places they border, but either way this one action alone will cause a large ripple effect I know the way the county works, the way that area works, the way things are and why they are that way. I know why people move to the places they move to, why places are the way they are, and how to fix things in certain places. This is my neighborhood. I care about it. I've been thinking for the past 5 years of ways to fix things and this is one I came up with about a year ago and realized it was the best way, the only way really, to stabilize Clifton Heights and fully stabilize Lansdowne. The fact is, that Clifton Heights won't be helped by being in UD school district when it's one of the worst parts of the district and Lansdowne wouldn't be helped by being in UD school district, nor could Lansdowne save Yeadon or East Lansdowne on its own. The only way to stabilize these two boroughs is by making them the focal points of their own district, which would not only force them to be self-sufficient but given all of the positives I mentioned above, would attract a good number of families to both boroughs. Either that or they'll be taken over by Southwest Philly within a decade. Maybe the appeal of Lansdowne to newcomers might save it from that fate despite its bad school district, but I'd rather give those two boroughs every opportunity than have things continue to hold them back.

Uneducated, unemployable, second and third generation families living of the Access card

Not really. It's so convenient to neglect the fact that there are very few jobs for them to work and they don't have anywhere near the opportunities of those in the nicer areas isn't it?

Where whites are the minority, the neighborhood goes bad. It's simple to figure out. They want our life styles but don't have the pride or persistence to obtain it and want it just handed to them. Even when it is, they ruin it.

Correlation does not prove causation. These "suburbs" that keep being referenced here were all built around industries and jobs that don't exist anymore. When those jobs went away, they relied on the neighborhoods being stable and the tax base to support the area financially. That, combined with the vanishing of working class jobs all over made them vulnerable to the ghetto they were so close to.

That's what happened to them. I watched it happen.

[Gladys]

Where whites are the minority, the neighborhood goes bad. It's simple to figure out. They want our life styles but don't have the pride or persistence to obtain it and want it just handed to them. Even when it is, they ruin it.

You really like putting people in one big pool. What about harlem. It's a great neighborhood and has been for a very long time.

People are as different as their personalities and moral code. Not skin color.

[ArcticSplash]

Uneducated, unemployable, second and third generation families living of the Access card

Any neighborhood dominated by folks on ACCESS means disinvestment hit the area a along time ago. That's not a race thing that is just simple math. You can't reroof a house on food stamps.

[ArcticSplash]

It is interesting to watch Philly burbs that filled up in the 60s and 70s now hit with the same problems that hit Kensington do long ago: lack of incomes. Without incomes, it's hard to pay for things like police, fire, schools. It also leaves a lot of folks idle that will have kids with nothing to do but break into your house.

Economics always trumps everything.

[NickleDimer]

It's an interesting conflict of ideas to have a blog dedicated to abandoned properties to try to improve the blight in your area, yet to spend time reveling in the decay of a neighboring community.

[Sycamore]

Many of the burbs mentioned have been crappy for decades. I'm pretty happy in my little corner of the area.

[billy ross]

It's an interesting conflict of ideas to have a blog dedicated to abandoned properties to try to improve the blight in your area, yet to spend time reveling in the decay of a neighboring community.

It'd be nice and healthier if the poverty were more spread around. Maybe it's less Schadenfreude and more relief that the awful concentration of Intergenerational poverty seems to be ebbing? Of course what could really be happening is the relocation of intergenerational poverty. I'd like to see some stats so I could have a better understanding of the dynamic.

I've noticed that in Philly the white neighborhoods aren't as white as they used to be, and the black neighborhoods aren't as black as they used to be. I think the younger generations are less and less into racial segregation, so we may be witnessing a generational change. I also think that we're seeing more and more economic segregation at the middle to high social capital level. ZIP code means a lot more than it used to, in my opinion, but not for urban pioneers, oddly enough. There are a lot of ways to look at what's happening and therefore understand it. It's a confusing swirl.

[ArcticSplash]

It'd be nice and healthier if the poverty were more spread around. Maybe it's less Schadenfreude and more relief that the awful concentration of Intergenerational poverty seems to be ebbing? Of course what could really be happening is the relocation of intergenerational poverty. I'd like to see some stats so I could have a better understanding of the dynamic.

I've noticed that in Philly the white neighborhoods aren't as white as they used to be, and the black neighborhoods aren't as black as they used to be. I think the younger generations are less and less into racial segregation, so we may be witnessing a generational change. I also think that we're seeing more and more economic segregation at the middle to high social capital level. ZIP code means a lot more than it used to, in my opinion, but not for urban pioneers, oddly enough. There are a lot of ways to look at what's happening and therefore understand it. It's a confusing swirl.

Do I revel that Bensalem is now rapidly turning into Kenzsalem? SPECIFICALLY for that suburb, yep.

If you wanna talk that particular town, it is almost all Philly ex-pats who flipped the bird and left town on the ticket to a train of a sub-prime or Option ARM mortgage. Those exploded and now there's asstons of more rentals already added to the rentals already there.

MontoCo, Chester and Bucks picking up more of Philadelphia's poor helps us out... and it lowers our poverty rate while those counties see an uptick, but nowhere near as high as ours (Philadelphia is at 26%). I would be happy if we could get that rate lowered to 20%. Social uplift will probably only be a fraction of that 6% and the rest will probably be folks leaving for better housing options in the inner ring burbs.


As for other towns, it's kinda depressing to see Folcroft go down the toilet though. And I'm not sure if poor folks putting their kids in Interboro will be a hit with Norwood and Prospect Park homeowners nearby if the decline reaches Glenolden. But if they up and sell, where will they honestly move to that isn't way, way more expensive than where they live now?

Another town that needs to be closely watched: Marcus Hook.

[NickleDimer]

So you two are cheerleading "spreading the poor pepole around"? To what end? To improve the statistics of a man-made grouping of territory?
I don't get it. Time might be better spent finding solutions to poverty and blight, not just simply shuffling the deck.

[seand]

So you two are cheerleading "spreading the poor pepole around"? To what end? To improve the statistics of a man-made grouping of territory?
I don't get it. Time might be better spent finding solutions to poverty and blight, not just simply shuffling the deck.

Historically a whole lot of state policy has hinged on reinforcing "man-made groupings of territory". The reshuffling might lead to a slightly different political reality between Harrisburg and Philadelphia, which in turn might contribute to real solutions.

[OffenseTaken]

So you two are cheerleading "spreading the poor pepole around"? To what end? To improve the statistics of a man-made grouping of territory?
I don't get it. Time might be better spent finding solutions to poverty and blight, not just simply shuffling the deck.

Not everyone can be the Jane ****ing Addams you are.

[ArcticSplash]

So you two are cheerleading "spreading the poor pepole around"? To what end? To improve the statistics of a man-made grouping of territory?
I don't get it. Time might be better spent finding solutions to poverty and blight, not just simply shuffling the deck.

We've been sitting in place marking time for 40 years looking for answers to poverty and blight.

We have answers for blight. For poverty; that's a much bigger problem that a local government can only pull so many levers to ameliorate. I'm focused on the City obviously, not on the collar counties. I put this thread up because I think there is a trend of decline hitting the suburbs. I'm of the belief that the poor moving out gives us some breathing room to look at blight some more and becoming a more desirable city---so that we can attract more jobs.


The negative feedback loop that fed Philadelphia's decline is reversing. Maybe the focus instead should be, for Philadelphia: how do you speed up and reinforce the POSITIVE feedback loop that is improving the city? How the suburban counties deal with the demographic changes will be interesting to watch.

[ArcticSplash]

Historically a whole lot of state policy has hinged on reinforcing "man-made groupings of territory". The reshuffling might lead to a slightly different political reality between Harrisburg and Philadelphia, which in turn might contribute to real solutions.

I wonder how, or if, Dominic is turning the new influx of poor into supporting the Delco GOP machine that rules much of Delco?

[seand]

I wonder how, or if, Dominic is turning the new influx of poor into supporting the Delco GOP machine that rules much of Delco?

No its part of the instability in DelCo politics. Like that crazy lady in Colwyn you mentioned up thread. Dems like the councilwoman take over and are just as machine like as the old Republican machine, if not way, way worse.

In Chester the agreements has always been if you want to do business with the city, or city employment, or according to some city services at all, you must register R. But thats how you can get a town where the Repbulcans completely control city politics but 80% of the population voted for Obama in 2008.

[billy ross]

So you two are cheerleading "spreading the poor pepole around"? To what end? To improve the statistics of a man-made grouping of territory?
I don't get it. Time might be better spent finding solutions to poverty and blight, not just simply shuffling the deck.

Carrying a cohort of unproductive citizens gets old fast. My wife grew up in 'Blue Bell' in MontCo and was a limousine liberal until she got stuck behind a person with an Access card at the supermarket in Germantown one too many times. Now there's one less voter voting to continue the welfare state in it's present form. All kinds of good things happen when a good chunk of the problem population in Philly moves to the counties.

I'm convinced that the average American 'understands' the hard-core poor from what they watch on television and in the movies. Anyone who spends serious time in the ghettoes can tell you how wooly-minded Hollywood's representation of what goes on is. I personally think that the level of removal from reality on both sides that is caused by the extreme isolation of the hard core poor is unhealthy for our democracy. These changes are good for Philadelphia, and good for our society. How many more Michael Nutters are there out there who haven't succeeded because they were in a sick environment and they weren't able to break out of it? You've got to admit that we're wasting tremendous potential talent.

[Naveen]

How many more Michael Nutters are there out there who haven't succeeded because they were in a sick environment and they weren't able to break out of it? You've got to admit that we're wasting tremendous potential talent.

Tons of talent wasted, yes. But the question is, what created that "sick environment". It seems to me the flight of the middle-class from urban cores last century, and the businesses which eventually moved with them, created a situation of chronic unemployment which tore communities apart. You eventually had a vicious cycle where economic decay coupled with social decay.

So what now? Will movement to the suburbs alleviate those problems? Or will we just have cul-de-sac ghettos in the 'burbs while the city gentrifies? Not saying I have an answer. Just asking questions...

[Naveen]

MontoCo, Chester and Bucks picking up more of Philadelphia's poor helps us out...

Chester County is picking up "Philadelphia's poor"? Where?

[billy ross]

Chester County is picking up "Philadelphia's poor"? Where?

The 'ville? I agree with you that it's mostly contiguous communities where people who are fleeing Philly are relocating to, but many poor Philadelphians have relocated to Norristown, skipping over increasingly wealthy Whitemarsh Township, Conshohocken Borough, and Plymouth Township. The patterns can be odd.

[NickleDimer]

Carrying a cohort of unproductive citizens gets old fast. My wife grew up in 'Blue Bell' in MontCo and was a limousine liberal until she got stuck behind a person with an Access card at the supermarket in Germantown one too many times. Now there's one less voter voting to continue the welfare state in it's present form. All kinds of good things happen when a good chunk of the problem population in Philly moves to the counties.

I'm convinced that the average American 'understands' the hard-core poor from what they watch on television and in the movies. Anyone who spends serious time in the ghettoes can tell you how wooly-minded Hollywood's representation of what goes on is. I personally think that the level of removal from reality on both sides that is caused by the extreme isolation of the hard core poor is unhealthy for our democracy. These changes are good for Philadelphia, and good for our society. How many more Michael Nutters are there out there who haven't succeeded because they were in a sick environment and they weren't able to break out of it? You've got to admit that we're wasting tremendous potential talent.

Good points about the separation between the truly poor and the "media" poor, b_r. Related to this, I would encourage your wife to reconsider her positions based on the sensational events at a few trips to the grocery store. Like the media, your mind clings on to the sensational events but forgets the dull times. Sure she saw some wild ACCESS card spending, but did not even notice or forgot about the average appropriate everyday use of them.