Effect of an Expiring Tax Abatement

[seand]

Also about having the power to attach tax liens not just on the shell the slumlord/ long-ago-moved-away-heir is not paying their taxes on but to their other properties in the state would be a huge tool to go after property tax deadbeats with. Why isn't that already law?

[ShoshTrvls]

How means testing works, how it squares with the Uniformity Clause or how Council plans to deal with commercial properties seperately and how it squares with the Uniformity Clause are complicated questions that should be plenty enough to keep a State Rep. busy.

I'm curious about how Allegheny County can do it given the uniformity clause. When did it finish its reassessment? It must have only been within the last year or two.

Not sure how I feel about means testing. Even if you have limited income, if your home is (now) worth $300,000, you have $300,000 (less any mortgage) in assets, and that should be taken into account. People who have done a good job saving, or have paid off their mortgages, or have invested their money over the years (money that probably should have been paid in RE taxes if the assessments were fair) should not be able to avoid paying their full real estate taxes and then reap a double windfall when they sell (collecting the market value of their homes, but not having paid adequate taxes on it).

However, if you do go to a net worth type of testing, the young professional couple with a brand new mortgage, student loans, and other debts could easily end up as the beneficiaries (as most will have a negative net worth), and the "old timers" with homes that are fully paid off will pay more.

[ShoshTrvls]

Also about having the power to attach tax liens not just on the shell the slumlord/ long-ago-moved-away-heir is not paying their taxes on but to their other properties in the state would be a huge tool to go after property tax deadbeats with. Why isn't that already law?

No question there.

[bootsywannabe]

Sure giving City Council more power will solve everything.

As homeowners we should all be thinking of ways to insulate ourselves and our tax bills from these nuts.

[seand]

And giving more power to the OPA's assesments without Council having a way to diminish the impact is preferable to you?

[seand]

Also about having the power to attach tax liens not just on the shell the slumlord/ long-ago-moved-away-heir is not paying their taxes on but to their other properties in the state would be a huge tool to go after property tax deadbeats with. Why isn't that already law?

Well the map shows both that there are lots of deadbeat landlords in the city, that the city is still not effectively going after, but also plenty outside of city limits that the law could help on tremendously.

[raider.adam]

Very good questions. Also a good questions is what the hell Mike O'Brian is doing. All of this legislation as I read it is about Council asking the state for the power to use a combination of various options to mitigate AVI's impact. It doesn't matter that AVI's new assessments won't be out till February because they are just numbers, not tax bills. Council sets the rates then and could also at that point implement whatever combination of things they hash out to smooth the transition. Nothing the state could do would translate directly to a tax bill, they are just options Council could choose or not choose to use in various combinations to in theory lessen AVI's impact.

Mike O'Brien stalling on giving City Council a set of tools they don't have to use till he personally sees the assessments himself is just an attempt to insert himself into City Council's business. If he wants to be a Councilman, he should run for that office, not backseat drive all the way from Harrisburg.

I don't think that is accurate. Council is asking for new powers to do a certain thing. I don't see it at all a problem for the General Assembly to want to know more of the details before granting such powers. How they will be used and in what context is very relevant.

Of course on the other side of the coin, I would be reluctant to believe his reasoning is that sincere and not just so he can tell NL residents he is looking out for them.

Also about having the power to attach tax liens not just on the shell the slumlord/ long-ago-moved-away-heir is not paying their taxes on but to their other properties in the state would be a huge tool to go after property tax deadbeats with. Why isn't that already law?

Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought part of the problem is how you handle the problem when properties are under different company names, but all the companies are owned by the one person.

Not sure how I feel about means testing. Even if you have limited income, if your home is (now) worth $300,000, you have $300,000 (less any mortgage) in assets, and that should be taken into account. People who have done a good job saving, or have paid off their mortgages, or have invested their money over the years (money that probably should have been paid in RE taxes if the assessments were fair) should not be able to avoid paying their full real estate taxes and then reap a double windfall when they sell (collecting the market value of their homes, but not having paid adequate taxes on it).

However, if you do go to a net worth type of testing, the young professional couple with a brand new mortgage, student loans, and other debts could easily end up as the beneficiaries (as most will have a negative net worth), and the "old timers" with homes that are fully paid off will pay more.

As well as encourages not reporting income, not joining assets, not marrying, not being frugal and saving, etc.

And to put it simply, we already do base taxes on income. We have a wage tax.

[seand]

We all know, in broad terms, approximately what assessments will be. Hell sites like zillow do half decent, general ball park job on the internet, for free. Does O'Brien really need to know if the OPA's numbers are within 10% or 15% of that to know if Council should have the power to use means testing or how it should work under state law, for example. Its just stalling, plain and simple.

[raider.adam]

We all know, in broad terms, approximately what assessments will be. Hell sites like zillow do half decent, general ball park job on the internet, for free. Does O'Brien really need to know if the OPA's numbers are within 10% or 15% of that to know if Council should have the power to use means testing or how it should work under state law, for example. Its just stalling, plain and simple.

Well, the problem is, with the continuing floating estimations of the millage rate, no one really has a decent estimation of where the City is placing assessments. I think a lot of politicians want to make sure they have no finger prints on the bomb if/when it goes off.

And since some fo the legislation is about taxing comemrcial at different rates than personal, yes, it makes knowing how "accurate" such numbers are going to be.

At the end of the day, knocking the obstruction over wanting more info isn't the strongest case against O'Brien. Usually lack of info has never stopped a Philly politician before.

[seand]

As well as encourages not reporting income, not joining assets, not marrying, not being frugal and saving, etc.

And to put it simply, we already do base taxes on income. We have a wage tax.

Which raises an interesting issue. Would people find AVI easier to put up with slightly higher wage taxes, if the city also lowered property tax rates and sent a higher proportion to the schools?

[bootsywannabe]

Why in the heck would we want to give the School District more money? So they can waste it?

The School District needs to be run much more efficiently, and it should see major reductions in funding as part of a major restructuring.

We've been throwing money at School Districts like Philly's for years, and they just keep sucking it up with no results.

[seand]

Why in the heck would we want to give the School District more money? So they can waste it?

Not what I said. I said cut the percentage of property taxes going to the city and raise the proportion going to schools proportional to what you cut property tax rates by. I.E. make property tax mostly only a school tax and move more of the revenue for the city over to wage taxes. Actually I wasn't even suggesting it, I was wondering aloud if that would be preferable to some people.

The School District needs to be run much more efficiently, and it should see major reductions in funding as part of a major restructuring.

More efficient, absolutely. But schools you actually want to send your schools to will never be free. Not at all. They sure aren't in our surrounding burbs.

My kid is starting public schools in a year or so you are going to have hard time convincing me decent schools are a "waste".

[bootsywannabe]

The 30 or so Unions in the School District get their cut of the money well before it ever reaches the classroom, or children. Some of these school districts have as many or more administrators than actual teachers, not even counting support staff. Plenty of room for some cuts.

[seand]

This if off topic. No likely change is going to reduce the cost of educating a child by half, which is roughly where you would lock property tax rates (and have them grow progressively grow out of sync with inflation from there).

[bootsywannabe]

Well, making school district employees contribute toward their pensions and benefits will go a long way, as will removing collective bargaining rights.

This has succeeded in Wisconsin, where pension management was also wrested out of the corrupt control of the same unions, resulting in substantial savings.

The end result? More money to hire new teachers, and reductions in property taxes.

[seand]

. . . as will removing [fundamental Constitutional] rights.

See my problem here.

[ShoshTrvls]

We all know, in broad terms, approximately what assessments will be. Hell sites like zillow do half decent, general ball park job on the internet, for free. Does O'Brien really need to know if the OPA's numbers are within 10% or 15% of that to know if Council should have the power to use means testing or how it should work under state law, for example. Its just stalling, plain and simple.

Actually, Zillow can be notoriously off. For one property I own, a recent appraisal -- which was totally in line with recent sales in the area -- was twice the Zillow estimate.

[bootsywannabe]

Ha, public sector unions have a constitutional right to collective bargaining? The Feds don't have it, wouldn't they have it too if it were unconstitutional for them not to have it? Yeah, our school district Unions have a constitutional right - outlined in the constitutional convention right here in Philly - to negotiate with themselves at the bargaining table. And the taxpayer can take a hike.

[annie]

Philly gets authority to move ahead on AVI

[raider.adam]

If the bill is just to allow the city to lower the rate, that's perfectly fine and necessary.