Big Belly Fail

[Mustard]

Knowing that a lot of good people worked hard and donated their money for to this - but can we please agree once and for all that these things simply don't work. The South Street Big Bellys look ridiculous. Especially the one at 21st where the guy living in front of it basically uses it as his personally dumpster. The others already look like they were on the loosing end of a moster truck rally.

South Philly nonprofit feels forced to remove trash cans but vows to fight back

Alternate idea I've floated with some folks on the block. Raise some money or create a cleaning fund (everyone who is willing chips in 10 dollars month) to simply pay someone to sweep up the block twice a month. I timed myself doing it street to street on a really messy day and it's never more than 2 hours. That's only 100 dollars a month in man hours. We figure it will only take 10 households to buy in at the price of a couple latte's, one person to organize it and we could have a clean block. You get one person to donate space in their trash can to toss the picked garbage in.

We tried the PSA approach but the sad truth is there are just too many hood rats and riff raff still in the mix to go with the "everyone clean your area and tie up are your garbage" thing.

Seems like a very simple, cost effective solution that perhaps could be expanded if it was kept really simple. I know the Center City District has basically the same thing, although far more complex. This idea would be an off the books, donate what you want, version.

One Big Belly cost enough to buy 100's (nearly 1000) man hours of cleaning not even including the maintenance or the cost to have the trash picked up.

[Coco]

Good article that addresses our problem in SWCC as well. Increasing density and people, multi-family dwellings, uncaring landlords, summer season, weeds growing on the sidewalks and curbs, the list goes on and on. Most folks take anything for granted. What happened to the trash police? I once got a ticket for placing my trash out on MLK Day (forgot!). But I see household trash cans now on sidewalks, even in front of newly renovated homes.

[londoner]

I love the idea and have questioned how we can't figure out a way to do this cheaply and smartly on here for years now. Posters will quote you numbers like $250 thousand per year for neighborhood cleanup though. If someone organizes, I'd gladly donate!

[seand]

I just want to point out that the article doesn't say the Big Bellies are the fail, rather they succeed in stopping people from filling them to overflow but rather that the old conventional ones are too expensive for the city to maintain because they do let people fill them to overflow faster than the city can send people around.

If anything the article points to needs for tougher trash enforcement and more of the cans out there being converted to Big Bellies.

[Barley]

I don't know what the solution would be, but the OP's idea seems like a good start. Whatever happens, I agree the Big Bellies aren't working in our neighborhood. I spent almost three hours yesterday cleaning the MARC basketball court (18 and Catharine), pulling up every weed and cleaning up all sorts of sh.t. This morning? Lots of litter around both benches within a few steps of a trash can.

[seand]

Why does this keep getting put back to Big Bellies vs. traditional trash cans. Neither type of container will fix the Philadelphia "I'm too lazy to walk 10 ft. to trash recepticle" issue.

Thats a cultural problem, not an engineering of the recepticles problem.

[VWPHILLY]

that what happen when they refuse to lock up the basketball court after hours. I watched kids sit right next to the trah cans at the court and throw the trash right on the sidewalk, that tells you how they were raised!!!!!!!

[Mustard]

delete

[Mustard]

Why does this keep getting put back to Big Bellies vs. traditional trash cans. Neither type of container will fix the Philadelphia "I'm too lazy to walk 10 ft. to trash recepticle" issue.

Thats a cultural problem, not an engineering of the recepticles problem.

That was my point. Both ideas don't work, the Big Bs are just a twist, although about a 1000 times more expensive, on the wire trash can.

Seems like this shouldn't be all that hard to put together. People pay folks to mow their laws, walk their dogs, shovel their snow all the time. You apply a little economy of scale, a jobless rate over 10% in the city, and someone with an excel spread sheet and seems like it should pretty achievable compared to some of the other super complex events and boards that SOSNA pulls of on a regular basis.

[seand]

That was my point. Both ideas don't work, the Big Bs are just twist, although about a 1000 times more expensive, on the wire trash can.

Wrong. The cost is with paying a city worker with benefits and a pension to empty the can. Big Bellies cost more in the beginning but reduce the number times required to empty them dramatically, costing less to taxpayers over the life of the can.

The article you linked to spelled out specifically that Big Bellies are better at controlling costs to keep them emptied than conventional wire baskets for precisely this reason.

Its very expensive to empty containers as often as people misuse them for residential trash and Philadelphians steadfastly refuse to use them for the wrappers and bits of street trash they are intended for. None of that has anything to do with the fact that Big Bellies are cheaper to maintain in terms of labor costs.

[loveisnoise]

Why does this keep getting put back to Big Bellies vs. traditional trash cans. Neither type of container will fix the Philadelphia "I'm too lazy to walk 10 ft. to trash recepticle" issue.

Thats a cultural problem, not an engineering of the recepticles problem.

Wrong-it is most definitely a 'big belly' problem, and their price tag and the way we got them doesn't help, either.

[seand]

I could say the sky is blue and you would post contrary to that these days, LIN.

I see a picture of some containers where people are too lazy to even open the door. How would a wire basket that needs to be emptied 6 times as often make those idiots less lazy?
Nobody says the Big Bellies magically make trash fly up into them. All they do is make it possible for the number of times the city comes out to empty them less frequent.

Would the same picture look better with 6 times the amount of trash spilling out of a wire basket onto the street? Because thats the alternative with the same labor input from the city.

[raider.adam]

TYhe big bellies aren't the problem. The problem is the residents and the City.

The residents are the problem because too many of them use street trash cans for household trash and many also just litter regardless if there is a trash can or not.

The City is the problem because they still empty the BBs too infrequently (just not as bad as the wire cans because of the compactor).

At least with the BBs, trash put in just doesn't fly away with a wind like the wire cans (of course that can be addressed with lids sized only to allow non-bagged trash to fit inside).

BBs were never intended to solve the litter problem. They were intended to address the manpower problem.

[loveisnoise]

And obviously you can not see.

One of them has the handle missing-as is usually the case. Why? Because bums steal them for scrap metal. That's an engineering fail.

The other? Red light and it froze up. Why? The city workers hurry through and only change the bins that are flashing or red. So, as with every week-they don't change them then during the weekends they're filled because they weren't changed, and this happens.

But you know it all and I'm just disagreeing with you. Yep, that must be it. In fact, I stole all the handles just to spite you. Yep, you got me.

I could say the sky is blue and you would post contrary to that these days, LIN.

I see a picture of some containers where people are too lazy to even open the door. How would a wire basket that needs to be emptied 6 times as often make those idiots less lazy?
Nobody says the Big Bellies magically make trash fly up into them. All they do is make it possible for the number of times the city comes out to empty them less frequent.

Would the same picture look better with 6 times the amount of trash spilling out of a wire basket onto the street? Because thats the alternative with the same labor input from the city.

[seand]

And scrappers wouldn't also steal those metal lids they uses to use to cover cans?

You are saying that on South St. city workers don't empty the Big Bellies often enough or preemptively enough. So tearing out the Big bellies and putting back wire baskets is going to make them come by and empty them 6 times more often how?

[loveisnoise]

And you call me a contrarian? I know the ****ing problems since I was in several meetings about it-but you know oh so much so please enlighten me.

The problem has become so bad that the streets department ran out of handles. And yes-I'm saying that due to the compacting nature of the cans, the workers ignore them until they lock up. I see it every night, I'm out on the street just about every night as they come around, and I can point out the problem from a mile away. The wire baskets make them do their job because the trash is visible and needs taken out daily. This illusion about saved cost and environment is a joke since no collections have been reduced... the only thing that has been reduced is how much work the sanitation workers can now ignore before sitting in front of wawa for hours doing nothing.

And scrappers wouldn't also steal those metal lids they uses to use to cover cans?

You are saying that on South St. city workers don't empty the Big Bellies often enough or preemptively enough. So tearing out the Big bellies and putting back wire baskets is going to make them come by and empty them 6 times more often how?

[seand]

Couldn't they just adjust when they go "red" to force workers to be more preemptive?

[torts]

I don't get the need for trash cans when there are sewers at every corner. When I'm done with my potato chips and bottled watter, I just stuff it down the sewer. It gets picked up in the water purification process. Even better, the City recycles the plastic. So it's a win-win all around.

[Mustard]

I meant the up front cost to us citizens of Graduate Hospital. We had to pay for them out of pocket.

Help me out here people. The point was not wire baskets vs Big Belly's. They both don't work for all of the reasons already written about ad nauseum.

How about Plan C

[seand]

Did SOSNA buy these for the city? How did you pay for them upfront?