The official bicycle rant thread [split from another thread...not really started by Gladys]

[desolate]

This probably deserves its own thread.

I've noticed that, on the roads east and west of the river, bikers behave like they're on a bikepath. They need to realize that they're not. They're on a multi-use PUBLIC ROADWAY. That means that there will be vehicles travelling a lot faster than they are. It means that as the slower traffic, they need to keep to the right, use caution when passing, and be aware of their surroundings, just as they would if crossing the street.

Cars will not be slowing downbecause there are bikes there.

I certainly hope that bike coalitioncovers these issues thoroughly in printed materials and talks prior to their rides. It would certainly be prudent of them to do so.

.

No? I fixed it for you.

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[lbphilly]

This probably deserves its own thread.

I've noticed that, on the trails east and west of the river, walkers behave like they're on a sidewalk. They need to realize that they're not. They're on a multi-use trail. That means that there will be vehicles travelling a lot faster than they are. It means that as the slower traffic, they need to keep to the right, use caution when passing, and be aware of their surroundings, just as they would if crossing the street.

Bicyclists will not be walking their bikes because there are pedestrians there.

I certainly hope that charity walk organizers cover these issues thoroughly in printed materials and talks prior to their walks. It would certainly be prudent of them to do so.

.

Very true. It does deserve its own thread.

Those charity walkers on the West River Drive do not share the road -- they take up the entire thing, and usually the multi-use trail as well. Their organizers make no provision for the rest of the users of this space, and the participants often labor under the misapprehension that the spaces are closed to cyclists and don't make much of an attempt to share the road.

I think the city ought to re-think the issue of charity runs and walks on the Drives, anyhow. It was one thing when there were only a couple of them, but just look at that list. It's practically every weekend. When is the rest of the walking / blading / cycling city supposed to enjoy that little strip of closed highway?

As I said, upthread, I've pretty much voted with my wheels. I'd rather cycle through the purportedly scary slums of Point Breeze than try to navigate around the various users of the trails. Then I get my cardiovascular workout at the decidedly untrendy FDR Park (aka The Lakes), where people actually manage to share the road with grace and good humor. I probably shouldn't mention that too often, lest it be "discovered."

[Gladys]

This.

I agree. Though I admit to being guilty of this, not being a regular walker on these trails. I think better (more obvious) signs and trail markings would go a long way.

AGREED - as a walker i can say that no it is not clear. The law gives right a way to pedestrians, areas where that are different are absolutely unclear.

[Gladys]

[QUOTE=lbphilly;289303]Very true. It does deserve its own thread.

Those charity walkers on the West River Drive do not share the road -- they take up the entire thing, and usually the multi-use trail as well. Their organizers make no provision for the rest of the users of this space, and the participants often labor under the misapprehension that the spaces are closed to cyclists and don't make much of an attempt to share the road.]

Unless told differently that is exactly what people think. Because it makes sense. The city needs to re-look this for many reasons. But i'd doubt they will give up the income to move the walks. That said. It still does not excuse cyclists from zipping in and out of grandpa, small children, and fido. That's just human decency.

Again, either the city should close the WRD during the walks or move them. Simple. There are far too many people to have both in the same space.

[lbphilly]

Thank you so much for showing the printed schedule is available and that bikers are aware that these happen frequently. So they should be ready and plan accordingly. Go for a ride in the afternoon after its over. But don't zip along nearly running people down. I was shocked to see bikers, it was so egregious i was hoping i swerved the wrong way not knowing just to teach them a lesson.

again - take it up with the city, start a letter writing campaign. Whatever. Just don't take it out on the generations of families walking to honor a loved one for whatever reason. Most of these people do not live in the city. The behavior of the cyclists i ran into that day was ridiculous.

Gladys, as a relative newcomer to this city you may not be aware that the Bicycle Coalition led the campaign to have the WRD closed to motor vehicles on the weekends so that cyclists would have a safe place to exercise. There was an enormous pushback with racial overtones led by radio personality Mary Mason about how this was inconveniencing the Drive's largely African American neighborhoods, plus a concern from the Zoo folks that their visitors would be inconvenienced. After much back and forth, the compromise was this: WRD would be closed its entire length in the morning. After noon, it is open to motor vehicles from the eastern end to Sweetbriar Cutoff (the Zoo). It's also open westbound for folks with picnic permits after noon. As a largely law-abiding cyclist, I used to look forward to my weekend rides on the Drives where, for a little time, I didn't have to worry about being blown off the road by some yobo who shouts that I belong on the sidewalk as he passes way too close and way too fast. Instead, I get glared at by a fair number of the folks at these charity events.

Please explain to me why it's so much more important for suburban families to honor their loved ones than for city residents to enjoy their parks.

[Gladys]

Gladys, as a relative newcomer to this city you may not be aware that the Bicycle Coalition led the campaign to have the WRD closed to motor vehicles on the weekends so that cyclists would have a safe place to exercise. There was an enormous pushback with racial overtones led by radio personality Mary Mason about how this was inconveniencing the Drive's largerly African American neighborhoods, plus a concern from the Zoo folks that their visitors would be inconvenienced. After much back and forth, the compromise was this: WRD would be closed its entire length in the morning. After noon, it is open to motor vehicles from the eastern end to Sweetbriar Cutoff (the Zoo). It's also open westbound for folks with picnic permits after noon. As a largely law-abiding cyclist, I used to look forward to my weekend rides on the Drives where, for a little time, I didn't have to worry about being blown off the road by some yobo who shouts that I belong on the sidewalk as he passes way too close and way too fast. Instead, I get glared at by a fair number of the folks at these charity events.

Please explain to me why it's so much more important for suburban families to honor their loved ones than for city residents to enjoy their parks.

LB - i've been partially living in philly since 1987 (half here, half NYC) and moved here in 2002. I am in no way a relative new comer. When you say things like that its patronizing. Even 8 years within a city does not make you a new comer. Please stop doing it every time we have a disagreement.

The way the city sets this up makes these difficulties. If they are going to grant permits for walks to happen then bikes should not be allowed to use FDR at the same time for safety reasons period. Its simply common sense. So either move the walks or close the area down to bikes for a few hours. The two together are not good.

If someone who has been around as long as i have doesn't know this because, its just insane that it's been allowed to happen, why would you think an entire suburban family would? Or even someone living in a different part of the city? If they are not told they would have no other choice but to think as i did. And i knew the roads are open and closed at various times and why. It is a perfectly reasonable thought. Also a lot of these participants are indeed city dwellers who are not aware the city has acted so irresponsibly to put people at risk. They have paid taxes for the park as well.

The rest is just human decency. You don't put people at risk over your right to pleasure. Human lives and well being are worth much more than your sunday ride on WRD. Even if the city has done something stupid. If it were cars there during bike hours it would be the same thing, which is why its closed. this situation is no different.

If you have problem with the set up as arranged by the city, go to them and change it. Meanwhile possibly running over tourists or mourners (as much a it may be a fun sport) is not a viable alternative.

[mmangino]

...
The rest is just human decency. You don't put people at risk over your right to pleasure. Human lives and well being are worth much more than your sunday ride on WRD.
...
[/QUOTE]

I think we all agree with this. I think bicyclists and runners just ask that walkers have the decency to give us some space. We're not asking for a lot. Again, the Philadelphia Marathon has 20,000 participants including elite athletes and manages to leave the trails open for runners and bicyclists. If walkers don't have the decency to provide room for others to get by, bicyclists and runners will be stuck trying to get around them.

[lbphilly]

LB - i've been partially living in philly since 1987 (half here, half NYC) and moved here in 2002. I am in no way a relative new comer. When you say things like that its patronizing. Even 8 years within a city does not make you a new comer. Please stop doing it every time we have a disagreement.

My mistake. You've talked about NYC so much I thought you mostly lived there.

[desolate]

Gladys, as a relative newcomer to this city you may not be aware that the Bicycle Coalition led the campaign to have the WRD closed to motor vehicles on the weekends so that cyclists would have a safe place to exercise. There was an enormous pushback with racial overtones led by radio personality Mary Mason about how this was inconveniencing the Drive's largely African American neighborhoods, plus a concern from the Zoo folks that their visitors would be inconvenienced. After much back and forth, the compromise was this: WRD would be closed its entire length in the morning. After noon, it is open to motor vehicles from the eastern end to Sweetbriar Cutoff (the Zoo). It's also open westbound for folks with picnic permits after noon. As a largely law-abiding cyclist, I used to look forward to my weekend rides on the Drives where, for a little time, I didn't have to worry about being blown off the road by some yobo who shouts that I belong on the sidewalk as he passes way too close and way too fast. Instead, I get glared at by a fair number of the folks at these charity events.

Please explain to me why it's so much more important for suburban families to honor their loved ones than for city residents to enjoy their parks.

and what was the ratio of bikers to walkers that day.

[Kaotic]

If Desolate and I agree on something then you know that the opposition is in the wrong. Just sayin....

[Kaotic]

blah, blah, blah, blah, blah....

As a group, bicyclists obey traffic laws as much as motorists--and, yes, pedestrians--in this town.

"Obeying laws" is also irrelevant to your point...

...and this is why motorist hate bicyclists. Stop acting like such an agrieved group. You're using the streets that are meant for cars, perhaps you should show the car the proper respect. After all the bicyclist will lose everytime when getting in an accident with a car.

There's a big difference here, if two motorists get in an accident here at 20-25 mph, it's a fender bender, but chances are that the driver will be unharmed. A car and a bike hit each other at the same speed, or a bike hits a walker at that speed, and someone's getting seriously hurt.

[lbphilly]

...and this is why motorist hate bicyclists. Stop acting like such an agrieved group. You're using the streets that are meant for cars, perhaps you should show the car the proper respect. After all the bicyclist will lose everytime when getting in an accident with a car.

"Streets are meant for cars"...? "Show the car the proper respect"...???? Sweet mother of pearl, where to start?

This is, not to put too fine a point on it, a load of crap. City street predate the automobile by a couple of centuries, and bikes traveled those streets a couple decades before cars as well. Bicyclists have all the same rights to the roads as motor vehicles, with certain exceptions such as limited access highways (which are clearly marked). The DMV has a section in the Driver Manual about this. You'll find it on pdf page 25, manual page 55 here:

http://www.dmv.state.pa.us/pdotforms.../chapter_3.pdf

As a motorist, you have every right to deprecate those cyclists who do not obey traffic laws. You do not have a right to deprecate those who obey the laws. I could say that I "hate motorists" because enough insensitive swine have blared their horns at close range that I am partially deaf in my left ear. Or because they have attempted to force me off the road and then bellowed at me to get up on the sidewalk where I "belong." But it would be inaccurate, and unfair to motorists such as the driver of a large truck who stopped his truck in such a way as to block two lanes on 34th St just north of Grays Ferry today just so that I could make a lane change.

As for Gladys and West River Drive closings: I am still not certain that she is aware of my principal point, which is that if virtually all the mornings when the Drive is closed from the Art Museum to Sweebriar Cutoff are given over to charity walks etc., then the original purpose for which the Drive was closed is thwarted. If I change the time of my ride to accommodate the charity events, I lose the opportunity to bike on the Drive without worrying about motor vehicles. Thus, in effect, Gladys' walk is deemed more important than my bike ride because her good cause is more important than my physical conditioning. I'm picking on Gladys right now because she brought it up, but it applies to all the participants in all the events that close the Drives. By the way, I searched for a list of Drive closings online several times some years ago, but didn't find it. I'm happy to see it's up. Folks might want to look at the landing page, which says nothing about the Drives being reserved for the exclusive use of these events: Fairmount Park . I was part of the team that campaigned for this closing and fought off the counter campaign (which was based on the premise that [white] out-of-towners were coming in and depriving "the community" of use of the Drives, and that the multi-use path was fine for all recreational users). So it's particularly galling to me that I'm driven off by so many other events.

Oh, and I'm not an 'agrieved group,' although some might say that I'm large enough to qualify as a group in my own right. I'm an aggrieved person. I catch it from the thoughtless motorists and I catch it from those thoughtless walkers who saunter with their triple wide strollers, or five abreast, or plugged in with their iPods, oblivious to me ringing my little bell and saying excuse me until I finally shout "YO!" -- and then they glare at me, totally unaware that this is the fourth or fifth time I've tried to get their attention.

[Kaotic -- an amalgam of chaotic and Kaopectate, I suppose, and descriptive of that user?]

[Digthepast]

This probably deserves its own thread.

I've noticed that, on the roads east and west of the river, motorists behave like they're on a superhighway. They need to realize that they're not. They're on a multi-use PUBLIC ROADWAY. That means that there will be vehicles travelling a lot slower than they are. It means that they need to respect the rights of other vehicles, use caution when passing, and be aware of their surroundings, just as they would if driving through a parking lot.

Bicycles will not be going away any time soon.

I certainly hope that the AAA covers these issues thoroughly in printed materials issued to drivers. It would certainly be prudent of them to do so.

No? I fixed it for you.

You like?

I like it much better now that I've fixed it...

[guzzijason]

Love this thread.



__Jason

[Gladys]

Glad to be of service. Its the little things in life that make it interesting. I've had my popcorn out many a time. but i never realized there was an icon!!

[Gladys]

My mistake. You've talked about NYC so much I thought you mostly lived there.

No my bad, I didn't realize i needed to give my CV to share an opinion.

Any time anyone mentions ny around here its met with such derision, that its use is blown way out of proportion.

Like mentioning hitler.

[Gladys]

and what was the ratio of bikers to walkers that day.

I have no idea but there were TONS of walkers.. packed... up and down.

[clonechemist]

again - take it up with the city, start a letter writing campaign. Whatever. Just don't take it out on the generations of families walking to honor a loved one for whatever reason. Most of these people do not live in the city. The behavior of the cyclists i ran into that day was ridiculous.

This might come off as snobby, but I think this is the root of the problem. For those of us who live in the city and love to run, rollerblade, bike, or whatever for a good workout or just to relax, the closed MLK drive on the weekends is essentially seen as an extension of the park. It's a city-maintained resource that is for us, as lbphilly has described. When giant hordes of men, women, children, and their pets, who are from outside the city and have no idea that they are robbing us of a beloved resource, come and occupy the entire area in a seemingly slobby and unnecessary way, we, the regular MLK users who are out there every weekend, get upset. I don't blame the individuals because, as you say, they are not from here, and in their position it would seem like a reasonable assumption that the whole road is closed for the event. Really the organizers need to figure out how to leave at least one full vehicle lane for all the regular recreational users. When you say on one hand that the regular recreational users need to accomodate the walkers and go at a different time, and on the other hand you admit that the walkers are people from outside the city who have no idea what they are impeding and just assume there is no need to share, you can see how that seems unreasonable, right? And for the record I'm sorry that you almost got run over.

[Gladys]

[QUOTE=lbphilly;289725]
As for Gladys and West River Drive closings: I am still not certain that she is aware of my principal point, which is that if virtually all the mornings when the Drive is closed from the Art Museum to Sweebriar Cutoff are given over to charity walks etc., then the original purpose for which the Drive was closed is thwarted. If I change the time of my ride to accommodate the charity events, I lose the opportunity to bike on the Drive without worrying about motor vehicles. Thus, in effect, Gladys' walk is deemed more important than my bike ride because her good cause is more important than my physical conditioning. I'm picking on Gladys right now because she brought it up, but it applies to all the participants in all the events that close the Drives. By the way, I searched for a list of Drive closings online several times some years ago, but didn't find it. I'm happy to see it's up. Folks might want to look at the landing page, which says nothing about the Drives being reserved for the exclusive use of these events: [url=http://www.fairmountpark.org/mlk_closure.asp]

No I get it. You are not hearing me that I get it. I HEAR YOU. whew.

I will reiterate again.

Obviously, the city has set this up in such a way that it is unsafe for everyone. The walk participants assume, apparently wrongly, that the space for those few hours is for the use of the charity walk (that is open to the public, it is not a private event). It's not an unreasonable assumption and they are given no instruction otherwise.

If how the space is used is a huge issue for cyclists - which apparently it is. Then go to the city and change how it happens.

Either it is used exclusively by the charity walk, which pays for the use.

Or make it clear to the renting organization they are not paying for the use of the space. What they are paying for I am not sure at this point.

Tell them to have the organization follow the example of the marathon. Which apparently has this down. Unfortunately the marathon runs in one direction, does it not? Or does it go up and down WRD. I don't know.

The thousands of people in these walks on any given day are instructed to walk up one side of the road and down the other, with a police car at either end of their walk. This gives them the impression they have nothing else to look out for. If a police car blocks off a road for you at either end - it's not insane to think the space is yours to use.

So if it’s a huge issue to cyclists - FIX IT. Go to the city and perhaps

1. Get them to make sure there is adequate room set aside for two late bike traffic in addition to the thousands of walkers.

Or

2. Put the charity walks elsewhere. (Where I have no idea).

Or

3. For the safety of the participants if neither 1 nor 2 doesn't happen the city should, in my opinion, close down the path for the renting charity walk, especially since that walk is open to the public. Roads are closed all the time for events... its not unusual. May not be popular, but is not unusual.

I AM NOT SAYING #3 IS WHAT THE OUTCOME SHOULD BE.

What I am saying is, whatever makes the use of the space safe for everyone concerned is what needs to happen. Clear?

Right now it’s not safe for anyone during these events. Not the cyclists or the walkers. Again, it’s just a horrible tragedy waiting to happen, followed by an ample lawsuit in the making.

Whatever the policy, it needs to be made abundantly clear and enforced, for the safety of all the parties involved. I can tell you as a participant nothing was told to us.

I don't walk on WRD because it’s a bit too deserted for me. This was the first time I had been on it, not in a car.

As bikes become more of a mainline vehicle for the city, the rules of conduct for all involved need to made abundantly clear, for the safety of everyone.

Meanwhile - until all that is done.

Cyclists have to have the common human decency not to run over or into grandma, grandkid or fido.

For God sake's if you’re pissed off about this - go do something about it to get it fixed. Don't take out your rightful frustration on the participants who have no idea why you are pissed.

Good God I hope that’s clear. I want it safe. However that happens, that’s what I want.

Where's my pop corn. For that aria I want a bow and applause from all i've entertained.

[Gladys]

There's a big difference here, if two motorists get in an accident here at 20-25 mph, it's a fender bender, but chances are that the driver will be unharmed. A car and a bike hit each other at the same speed, or a bike hits a walker at that speed, and someone's getting seriously hurt.

Wow and again, I agree with this paragraph of Kaotic's. I think see the horsemen of the apocalypse off in the distance.