Point Breeze, 20th and Wharton, is it wise to buy a new construction home here?

**rccollins** · 08-15-2012, 02:11 PM

ok my wife and I are about to make an offer on a pretty nice home, new construction right near the corner of 20th and wharton in point breeze. We have been walking the area niight and day quite a bit in the past few months to feel out all different sections of point breeze. I just want to get a general opinion of this specific location, are we crazy to move here? we have been living at 5th and wharton for several years and it is certainly a much more established area. I know there is a lot of development in point breeze so we think we are gonna go for it. We may end up only living there for about 5 to 10 years though so its hard to guess how much development will take place. I read just recently on the forums that 20th and reed is one of the scariest intersections in south philly, this makes me pretty nervous. Any insight on this would be greatly appreciated, thanks

**OutOfContext** · 08-15-2012, 02:21 PM

Were you uncomfortable with what you saw while walking around the area at night?

**rccollins** · 08-15-2012, 02:29 PM

It wasnt too bad, we plan to go back again tonight for more research. There didnt seem to be a lot of activity overall after dark, nor do i plan to have a lifestyle of running around the neighborhood late at night. It seems like anything south of wharton gets pretty shady but i just dont have any long term experience with what it could be like to really live in this spot longterm.

**OutOfContext** · 08-15-2012, 02:38 PM

I guess it's all about how comfortable with what you've seen in the area really.

Personally, I don't have enough faith in the area (at present) to be confident in being able to sell the house for a profit when the time comes.

I'm not a professional or anything though, so your mileage may vary.

**mixiboi** · 08-15-2012, 02:42 PM

Well if you compare it to another area(Northern Liberties) It took 20 years for it to get to the point it is at now(With much of the construction in the past 12 years). While it took less time for construction in another area(Brewerytown) it is still a area that needs a lot of development in the commercial area(Tho they just started the first supermarket in 20 years).

I feel that Point Breeze is going to go the same way as these area have. Will it Develop in the next 5 years? I don't think it'll be that fast, but the next 10 years will be moving in the right direction.

**BarryG** · 08-15-2012, 02:45 PM

Look at the crime reports, in two or three directions you are only a couple blocks from many open air shootings over the past year+.

**mixiboi** · 08-15-2012, 02:50 PM

2000-2013 Wharton St. crimes | EveryBlock Philadelphia

528-599 Wharton St. crimes | EveryBlock Philadelphia

this reminds me why I don't go on everyblock..I'd never go outside

**Malloy** · 08-15-2012, 03:12 PM

IMO: It will take 10+ years to net a profit on 2012 market price new construction at in Point Breeze. You will have to deal with blight, crime and drama for 10 years. The area will get better and better, no doubt. It comes down to quality of life, and what you want. Personally, I wouldn't be happy living in most of PB. The Newbold area is decent, but not great.

I'd prob buy East of Broad.

FWIW, I have ownership interest in a rental property in Point Breeze, on 20th closer to Snyder than Washington.

Mike (not a RE developer, broker or realtor)

**Giavella Water** · 08-15-2012, 03:17 PM

Originally Posted by rccollins

ok my wife and I are about to make an offer on a pretty nice home, new construction right near the corner of 20th and wharton in point breeze. We have been walking the area niight and day quite a bit in the past few months to feel out all different sections of point breeze. I just want to get a general opinion of this specific location, are we crazy to move here? we have been living at 5th and wharton for several years and it is certainly a much more established area. I know there is a lot of development in point breeze so we think we are gonna go for it. We may end up only living there for about 5 to 10 years though so its hard to guess how much development will take place. I read just recently on the forums that 20th and reed is one of the scariest intersections in south philly, this makes me pretty nervous. Any insight on this would be greatly appreciated, thanks

You are two blocks away from a ton of rehabs and new construction north so that after that area is developed, the building boom will assuredly filter down to Wharton, Reed, Dickinson, etc. so in 10 years when you want to sell, you would hopefully see a great return on your investment.

**Sharkfood** · 08-15-2012, 03:19 PM

Originally Posted by Malloy

IMO: It will take 10+ years to net a profit on 2012 market price new construction at in Point Breeze. You will have to deal with blight, crime and drama for 10 years. The area will get better and better, no doubt. It comes down to quality of life, and what you want. Personally, I wouldn't be happy living in most of PB. The Newbold area is decent, but not great.

I'd prob buy East of Broad.

FWIW, I have ownership interest in a rental property in Point Breeze, on 20th closer to Snyder than Washington.

Mike (not a RE developer, broker or realtor)

Some of the new construction is priced extremely low, in the 100's. The area is rapidly improving. I don't see a problem turning a profit after 10 years.

I remember when the first person dared to do a rehab on Carpenter St. west of Broad in 2004. I almost fell out of my chair laughing, but now look.

**dogoagogo** · 08-15-2012, 03:22 PM

I drive between 25th & Wharton to 8th & Wharton almost every day during evening rush hour, mid day and early mornings. Nothing late at night, but as late as 7-7:30 PM and as early as 5 AM.

I'm optimistic about the area, although north of Wharton seems to be coming along a bit more quickly than Wharton itself.

My opinion is based on visible rehabs and new construction, amenities, street traffic. As a city person, who is not afraid of the big bad wolf as long as he keeps his junk in his own pants, I wouldn't be horribly concerned there, but I would be wary. You may face resistance from the residents at first, but if you are polite, say hello and don't act "snobby", folks in this neighborhood are responsive and, as far as my experience goes, friendly.

There are problems but (like my big bad wolf comment) I would think they are mostly contained to the groups that are involved in shady dealings or gangs. There haven't been many "innocent bystander" issues that I can recall despite the shootings. (I think the one a month or so ago at 22nd and Reed involved a bystander?)

JMO.

**Porterpotty8** · 08-15-2012, 03:30 PM

Federal, Ellsworth, Anin an Manton...thats where you will get you ROI when you sell...

**JJS** · 08-15-2012, 03:33 PM

My wife and I were looking around there. The deal-killer for us was her getting home from work at night.

I think it seems safer in the summer because there are more people outside. We walked the neighborhood on a Sunday afternoon in February. It was bad, but it seemed manageable. Then we drove through the same area at about 7 PM on a weekday in February. It was a completely different story. I didn't want to get out of the car. It seemed desolate in winter, particularly on a cold night. We got the sense that if someone wanted to attack you in the dark, they could. Easily. And there'd be no one there to help. Whether approached from Center City proper or the Broad Street Line, my wife would've had to walk through a really sketchy area at night.

If the neighborhood meets its potential, there's a lot of money to be made. I wasn't willing to gamble with my family's security.

There's an inherent safety gamble to living in the City. Why stack the odds against yourself?

**darthsinatra** · 08-15-2012, 03:41 PM

And there's this
http://www.philadelphiaspeaks.com/fo...-12th-1pm.html

**Malloy** · 08-15-2012, 04:08 PM

Most I have seen are mid 200s, low 300s. I would much rather spend low 300s in the Pass Square area for a great home in a historically great area.

Originally Posted by Sharkfood

Some of the new construction is priced extremely low, in the 100's. The area is rapidly improving. I don't see a problem turning a profit after 10 years.

I remember when the first person dared to do a rehab on Carpenter St. west of Broad in 2004. I almost fell out of my chair laughing, but now look.

**JJS** · 08-15-2012, 04:27 PM

Originally Posted by Malloy

Most I have seen are mid 200s, low 300s. I would much rather spend low 300s in the Pass Square area for a great home in a historically great area.

Yes.

**tsarstruck** · 08-15-2012, 04:38 PM

I would be very wary of any new, non-subsidized construction that's in the 100s anywhere in the city.

**sharkey** · 08-15-2012, 05:05 PM

Northern Liberites was rundown, but it was never a dangerous 'hood like Point Breeze. Gentrification can stall out (as it did for a long time in N.L.) and if it does you will be left in the wilderness. Follow the threads here about what OCF Development is going through with the locals in P.B.; you will be resented by your neighbors rather than welcomed.

**InYourVacancies** · 08-15-2012, 05:41 PM

Originally Posted by JJS

My wife and I were looking around there. The deal-killer for us was her getting home from work at night.

I think it seems safer in the summer because there are more people outside. We walked the neighborhood on a Sunday afternoon in February. It was bad, but it seemed manageable.

In my experiences, I feel more comfortable in worse neighborhoods in the winter. There's always a spike of ****ty activity in the summer. More people out, which increases the average of scumbags, as well as people get worked up and pissy more when it's hot. And on nights in the summer, those same people are out getting messed up on god knows what. Yes more good people out increases your likelyhood of somebody helping in a bad situation, but think about how many of them won't want to get involved for fear of their own safety.

**Eastcoast** · 08-15-2012, 05:48 PM

I wouldn't pay over 250K for a 3/2.

I would be prepared to become a landlord if need be, that would allow you to open up your timeframe to see a return/profit on the property if life turns out to be unpredictable.