Philly Live

**mixiboi** · 03-27-2012, 10:19 AM

That shot is from the inside of the Sport Complex Parking lots, so yeah its going to look like a surbarban park, specially since they made that part the open plaza.

**londoner** · 03-27-2012, 12:45 PM

Originally Posted by luchobucho

Anyone get any more pictures? It looks like a suburban office park from that photo.

It really does...hopefully the exterior gets schlocked full of neon and LED screens and it just glows like Vegas. That will decidedly un-suburbanize and de-office-ify it. From what i can tell from the initial renderings it looks like that's kind of going to happen?

**mixiboi** · 03-27-2012, 01:31 PM

Yeah we are only at phase 1:

Which is at the edge of this picture on the left(Behind the tower):

Hopefully Phase 2 (The buiding leading to WF Center) and 3(tower and building with a park/pool? on top next to it) aren't far behind, now that the economy is changing back.

**eldondre** · 03-27-2012, 01:39 PM

is that still the plan? seems pretty awful to line pattison with a surface lot. thumbs down.

**luchobucho** · 03-27-2012, 02:19 PM

Yeah, I guess I just had higher hopes for this development. Something a bit more urban....that would transform the sports complex into a more cohessive well dressed site. This feels more like more divided-highway-style dreck, dropped on a site with little consideration for the surrounding area.

Flame Away.

**eldondre** · 03-27-2012, 04:23 PM

Originally Posted by luchobucho

Yeah, I guess I just had higher hopes for this development. Something a bit more urban....that would transform the sports complex into a more cohessive well dressed site. This feels more like more divided-highway-style dreck, dropped on a site with little consideration for the surrounding area.

Flame Away.

snider is the guy who fought to make sure the flyers didn't play near 30th st way back when, I guess you can't teach an old dog new tricks

**scotchrocks** · 03-27-2012, 05:18 PM

Easy, simple parking is of paramount importance with projects like these. Anyone who has ever driven to the stadiums (stadia?) and had to contend with the inexperienced suburbanites trying to navigate the sea of pedestrians, police and blinking traffic lights knows that getting cars out of the flow of traffic and into the parking lots is singular for the overall success of the area. This new entertainment center might be slightly detached from the arenas and surface-level parking on both sides of the street might be unsightly, but it's better than what was there until a year ago, and ultimately the aesthetics don't matter a whit if the product on the courts/fields/ice is the main attraction.

**eldondre** · 03-27-2012, 06:17 PM

Originally Posted by scotchrocks

Easy, simple parking is of paramount importance with projects like these. Anyone who has ever driven to the stadiums (stadia?) and had to contend with the inexperienced suburbanites trying to navigate the sea of pedestrians, police and blinking traffic lights knows that getting cars out of the flow of traffic and into the parking lots is singular for the overall success of the area. This new entertainment center might be slightly detached from the arenas and surface-level parking on both sides of the street might be unsightly, but it's better than what was there until a year ago, and ultimately the aesthetics don't matter a whit if the product on the courts/fields/ice is the main attraction.

the design does the opposite of what you say it should.

**gren** · 03-27-2012, 06:38 PM

Originally Posted by eldondre

is that still the plan? seems pretty awful to line pattison with a surface lot. thumbs down.

Pattison is a 7 lane road. I'm not sure if lining it with shops would have made it feel that much better. I'm actually somewhat disappointed that they removed the trees and put the building so far north, I thought keeping the wide sidewalk might have actually worked in this case since Pattison is a bearable walking experience so you can walk so far away from the 7 lanes.

How would you have placed the buildings with the assumption that you need similar amounts of parking and similar footprints for the buildings?

**eldondre** · 03-27-2012, 09:21 PM

Originally Posted by gren

Pattison is a 7 lane road. I'm not sure if lining it with shops would have made it feel that much better. I'm actually somewhat disappointed that they removed the trees and put the building so far north, I thought keeping the wide sidewalk might have actually worked in this case since Pattison is a bearable walking experience so you can walk so far away from the 7 lanes.

How would you have placed the buildings with the assumption that you need similar amounts of parking and similar footprints for the buildings?

parking has relatively little to do with the design. you'll notice that there is a diagonal walkway, I'd have placed it such that the walkway funnels people from the subway to the linc and WF rather than between the bank and WF. in fact, if you go back to the 2004 planning documents that's exactly how they proposed to improve pedestrian flow. the fact they actually tore down the spectrum and still came up with this garbage design is all the more depressing. I'd disagree that having buildings rather than parking spaces line pattison wouldn't improve the urban experience in that area. if you look at the complex as a whole, it's not designed to be as easy as possible to drive in and out of (indeed, the spectrum and vet were designed with subway and car access in mind), it was designed to make construction easy and cheaper when they built the new stadiums.
there's still a chance to get it right on the north side parcel and finally close off the driveway that cuts across the sidewalk.

**gren** · 03-27-2012, 10:41 PM

Originally Posted by eldondre

parking has relatively little to do with the design. you'll notice that there is a diagonal walkway, I'd have placed it such that the walkway funnels people from the subway to the linc and WF rather than between the bank and WF. in fact, if you go back to the 2004 planning documents that's exactly how they proposed to improve pedestrian flow. the fact they actually tore down the spectrum and still came up with this garbage design is all the more depressing. I'd disagree that having buildings rather than parking spaces line pattison wouldn't improve the urban experience in that area. if you look at the complex as a whole, it's not designed to be as easy as possible to drive in and out of (indeed, the spectrum and vet were designed with subway and car access in mind), it was designed to make construction easy and cheaper when they built the new stadiums.
there's still a chance to get it right on the north side parcel and finally close off the driveway that cuts across the sidewalk.

I didn't mean to say it wouldn't improve the urban experience or even the pedestrian experience (which I'd argue is different). I just don't think it can really mitigate the huge road you're walking along. I do think the idea of a nice path like I think you're describing would improve the experience at least from the subway to whichever destination.

Do you have a link to the document you referenced?

**threecount1** · 03-27-2012, 11:46 PM

The price of the parking is interesting..if you show up during an event there such as Sixers/Flyers/Phillies and get there before the game begins, to park on the lot, you will have to pay full price, as if you are parking to go the game.. if you want to wait, then one hour after start-time of event, parking will be free, which is the time they stop charging people to go into the lots for the events.. During afternoons and nights when there are no events at the complex, parking is free..they also have Valet parking..

Will also be interesting to see how many people just leave their car where they park, and have to walk..In other words, it may be a mess if say you park on the other side of the Linc or behind Citizens Bank Park for a game and want to drive over to XFinity live after the game..it seems it is always crazy with traffic once a game lets out, and it may be nuts in trying to get back over and park closer to Xfinity..would be nice if they have shuttle buses...

**eldondre** · 03-28-2012, 09:28 AM

Originally Posted by gren

I didn't mean to say it wouldn't improve the urban experience or even the pedestrian experience (which I'd argue is different). I just don't think it can really mitigate the huge road you're walking along. I do think the idea of a nice path like I think you're describing would improve the experience at least from the subway to whichever destination.

Do you have a link to the document you referenced?

http://www.philadelphiaspeaks.com/fo...dy-2004-a.html

**candyfish** · 03-28-2012, 02:47 PM

If you're looking for an "urban" feel, I don't think this spot is gonna do it for you. Not only does the complex feel suburban, the businesses do to. I know a couple of people who are working there. Apparently at one restaurant the servers have to dance on tables. I have a friend who loves chain restaurants. She went there to check it out before it opened with another friend who's working there and said she even found it to be too much. It's not a bad thing, it's just not meant to appeal to us, the people who live in South Philly. It's meant to make people from the suburbs happy. The good thing is it brought a lot of jobs to those of us who live down here. It even has a dress code which I think is really funny!

**eldondre** · 03-28-2012, 02:53 PM

Originally Posted by candyfish

If you're looking for an "urban" feel, I don't think this spot is gonna do it for you. Not only does the complex feel suburban, the businesses do to. I know a couple of people who are working there. Apparently at one restaurant the servers have to dance on tables. I have a friend who loves chain restaurants. She went there to check it out before it opened with another friend who's working there and said she even found it to be too much. It's not a bad thing, it's just not meant to appeal to us, the people who live in South Philly. It's meant to make people from the suburbs happy. The good thing is it brought a lot of jobs to those of us who live down here. It even has a dress code which I think is really funny!

I think a lot of people assume "people from the suburbs" are some sort of amorphous blob that loves cookie cutter everything. if that's so, then why are they filling up tables and barstools all over center city? it's really about basic design. "people from the suburbs" don't demand poor design, though ed snider might.

**BarryG** · 03-28-2012, 03:08 PM

Originally Posted by eldondre

I think a lot of people assume "people from the suburbs" are some sort of amorphous blob that loves cookie cutter everything. if that's so, then why are they filling up tables and barstools all over center city? it's really about basic design. "people from the suburbs" don't demand poor design, though ed snider might.

It's not about the people from the suburbs who go to the unique restaurants and bars in the city already, it's about the people who drive in to the game, then leave after, because they don't care about what else the city has to offer. This type of development captures them. People in the 'burbs wait for hours to get into Cheesecake Factory and Applebee's, but on a Friday night in the city, Applebee's and Ruby Tuesday are some of the only places without a wait. The crowd that goes to sporting events is incredibly diverse so it's pretty logical to make Live!'s appeal as broad as possible.

But yea there is no excuse for poor design... I'll reserve judgement until I see it in person.

**luchobucho** · 03-28-2012, 03:51 PM

Originally Posted by threecount1

The price of the parking is interesting..if you show up during an event there such as Sixers/Flyers/Phillies and get there before the game begins, to park on the lot, you will have to pay full price, as if you are parking to go the game.. if you want to wait, then one hour after start-time of event, parking will be free, which is the time they stop charging people to go into the lots for the events.. During afternoons and nights when there are no events at the complex, parking is free..they also have Valet parking..

Will also be interesting to see how many people just leave their car where they park, and have to walk..In other words, it may be a mess if say you park on the other side of the Linc or behind Citizens Bank Park for a game and want to drive over to XFinity live after the game..it seems it is always crazy with traffic once a game lets out, and it may be nuts in trying to get back over and park closer to Xfinity..would be nice if they have shuttle buses...

Why would you drive across the parking lot?

Maybe they'll put in a mono-rail.

**hubba1** · 03-28-2012, 04:14 PM

So I have all of the individual places on my facebook, the Spectrum grill had a contest today and the first two people to text them the answer wins a Cocktail party... I won... waiting on the info via email, but hey, I figure it's gotta be at least a few free drinks! The Spectrum Grill is the one somewhat fancier of all of the places inside, so I'm looking forward to whatever the actual prize entails!

**Naveen** · 03-28-2012, 04:18 PM

Nice to see Victory in the city! I really hope this thing is far having all the finishes on it. I know how perilous it can be to comment on a work when it's only partially completed, but, I can't resist saying that it's far from the renderings at this point. I hope it lives up to even the scaled-back expectations.

**candyfish** · 03-28-2012, 05:51 PM

I didn't mean to insinuate that all people from the suburbs only like chain restaurants. I know that many of them take advantage of great places in the city. I was making the same point as Barry G. That it is meant for people who drive to games and want to have a meal and drink before or afterwards, people who don't venture into the center city. That is why there is such a demand for a place like this. It is close to the stadiums and people who are afraid to drive into the city don't have to.