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  1. #1
    Member phillyTIM's Avatar
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    Exclamation New SEPTA Ride Limits coming on Weekly & Monthly TransPasses

    Big enough topic to warrant it's own thread: SEPTA is about to impose a new amount of ride limits on both its Weekly and Monthly TransPasses.

    Along with the higher fares, the newly imposed limits will be 50 rides per Weekly TransPass and 200 rides per Monthly TransPass. And each transfer will count as 1 ride against your limit.

    Click for the Philly.com article and then what you can do THIS WEEK to be heard.

    Weekly/monthly passes are unlimited in other major cities such as Boston and New York (where unlimited monthly is $112 for a more extensive system, compared to Philadelphia's $92 limited system).

    Think about it this way: with multi-part commutes and many have 6-day work weeks, that 50/week limit can be hit real quick: For example, we can easily expend 6 trips a day just to get to work and back home again: a bus, a subway and then perhaps yet another bus may be needed to get to work. Reverse that again to get home. Working 6 days a week, that adds up to 36 trips a week thus far. Add 2 more trips per day for something like lunch, where food options are severely limited at places such as the Philadelphia Naval Yard. Right there (6 work days @ 6-part-round-trip commute with a 2-part-round-trip lunch) that could be 48 trips already counted against a TransPass user in ONE week, without even adding in trips for errands or emergencies!

    As an FYI, I wrote SEPTA in protest and received this response back from SEPTA, who use ride limits as their excuse to combat pass-sharing abuse and the eliminations of the M/F sticker on each pass:


    Passes are for the use of the person whose signature is on the pass. Still, we realize that pass sharing does occur. With the elimination of the male and female designations on passes the frequency of pass sharing is anticipated to increase. With the introduction of new payment technology we will be able to determine the number of times a pass is used, so we are able to place a limit on the number of rides rather than increase the cost of the pass even higher than the proposed increase.

    Our records show that the ride limit will affect less than one percent of pass holders. If you are among those who will occasionally exceed the pass limit, you will be able store additional funds on your smart media to cover the payment required for rides in excess of the limit on those weeks or months when you exceed the limit rather than pay a higher overall fee for the pass every week or month.

    Thank you for your inquiry and for choosing SEPTA.


    No word that SEPTA would take my plea into consideration or anything, they just coldy rejected it!

    SEPTA posts the following:


    Pass ride limits are designed to stop pass sharing.

    There will be public hearings where you can voice your concerns. Here's the Schedule of Public Hearings:

    Delaware County | Monday, April 15, 2013
    Delaware County Court House
    County Council Meeting Room, 2 p.m. & 6 p.m.
    201 W. Front Street, Media, PA 19063

    Montgomery County | Tuesday, April 16, 2013
    Montgomery County Human Services Center
    Community Room, Main Floor, 2 p.m. & 6 p.m.
    1430 DeKalb Pike, Norristown, PA 19404

    Philadelphia County | Wednesday, April 17, 2013
    SEPTA Board Room, 11 a.m. & 5 p.m.
    1234 Market Street, Philadelphia, PA 19107

    Chester County | Friday, April 19, 2013
    West Chester Borough Hall
    County Chambers, 2 p.m. & 6 p.m.
    401 E. Gay Street, West Chester, PA 19380

    Bucks County | Monday, April 22, 2013
    Bucks County Free Library
    Pearl Buck Room, 2 p.m. & 6 p.m.
    150 S. Pine Street, Doylestown, PA 18901

    You can also click here SEPTA | Public Hearing| Fiscal Year 2014 Capital Budget and use the comments form at the bottom of the page or send an email/letter to the addresses provided.


    What other major City has removed unlimited passes with the lame excuse of pass abuse??? Absolutely none!

    Where do we go from here to take action, spread the word and be heard?
    Last edited by phillyTIM; 04-15-2013 at 03:29 PM. Reason: Added the SEPTA response letter I received back.

  2. #2
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    a transpass in boston is $70/mo

    Monthly LinkPass $70/month
    Unlimited travel on Subway and Local Bus
    MBTA.com > Information on Fares and Gifts
    "It has shown me that everything is illuminated in the light of the past"
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  3. #3
    Philly Remixed mixiboi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phillyTIM View Post
    Weekly/monthly passes are unlimited in other major cities such as Boston and New York (where unlimited monthly is $112 for a more extensive system, compared to Philadelphia's $92 limited system).
    I wouldn't call it limited....lol.



    But yeah, its been a while that SEPTA done something that cause so much outrage....the last I can remember is the elimination of paper transfers..and that went all the way down to the DAY of the elimination the paper transfers...

    City Sues SEPTA To Save Transfers / SEPTA's False Claims | Young Philly Politics
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    This is an absurd proposition. I'd imagine that pass sharing occurs on a daily basis, not intraday. Considering you'd have to make over 6 trips per day - consistently - who are they targeting exactly? This seems like such a small move that will have such little impact, I don't know why you take the PR hit.

  5. #5
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    Local Bus $48/month
    Unlimited travel on Local Bus and Silver Line 'Washington St.'
    Valid on all Local Buses and all local portions of Express Buses 170, 351, 354, 424, 426, 428, 434, 448, 449, 450, 459, 553, 554, 556, and 558.
    Not valid for a discount on an Express Bus fare or any travel or any discounts on any portion of the Green Line or Mattapan High-Speed Line.
    mbta even offers a cheaper alternative (though given septa's setup it might behoove them to offer a subway only pass for less money)
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  6. #6
    Member phillyTIM's Avatar
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    Even if there is some pass-sharing going on, I can't imagine that it's in such epidemic levels. I mean, you can't go through a turnstyle once and and then hand it over to someone behind you and expect it will let them through. It won't, as there are time limits on how quickly it will work consecutively through a turnstyle. Something like 30 minutes, right? And who, really, is gonna wait around 30 minutes just to let their friend through??? Not many at all I would guess. And how many different places can that pass be at once? Not many, I would also guess!

    This whole concept of new artificial limits just wreaks of SEPTA attempting to find new ways to indirectly milk more money out of us.

    Heck, if I want to go to a movie, I've got to take a bus, then a subway, and then another bus. By the time I get home, that's 6 trips in one night that already count against my 50 trip weekly limit!

  7. #7
    Philly Remixed mixiboi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phillyTIM View Post
    Even if there is some pass-sharing going on, I can't imagine that it's in such epidemic levels. I mean, you can't go through a turnstyle once and and then hand it over to someone behind you and expect it will let them through. It won't, as there are time limits on how quickly it will work consecutively through a turnstyle. Something like 30 minutes, right? And who, really, is gonna wait around 30 minutes just to let their friend through??? Not many at all I would guess. And how many different places can that pass be at once? Not many, I would also guess!
    Happens all the time. I seen it..hell SEPTA has it on camera, and a big profile news story a couple of weeks ago:

    SEPTA: Mom, Grandmom Dodge Fare, Leave Baby Behind | NBC 10 Philadelphia

    And SEPTA did nothing about that...Tho now that they will have a $150 fare evasion fee..we will see what happens.



    But I want to know what happens after 200 taps? It might be a problem on the EL/Subway, but I doubt bus drivers will turn people away...
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    If they didn't want riders to share passes then why did they fail to enforce the policy year after year? Seriously, has anyone ever been asked to show ID to validate a pass?

  9. #9
    Philly Remixed mixiboi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhilaCap View Post
    If they didn't want riders to share passes then why did they fail to enforce the policy year after year? Seriously, has anyone ever been asked to show ID to validate a pass?
    Nope, which is where the whole Transgender fight started....But it seems they are catching some people:

    According to Chief Nestel, fare evasion arrests have gone up 500% within the past year. Those found guilty of fare evasion receive a citation, report to court for a summary violation and pay a $100 penalty.
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  10. #10
    Member phillyTIM's Avatar
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    Here is SEPTA's lame excuse and public hearing info, SEPTA just posted to my reply on their Facebook page:

    Pass ride limits are designed to stop pass sharing.

    There will be public hearings where you can voice your concerns. Here's the schedule
    Schedule of Public Hearings

    Delaware County | Monday, April 15, 2013
    Delaware County Court House
    County Council Meeting Room, 2 p.m. & 6 p.m.
    201 W. Front Street, Media, PA 19063

    Montgomery County | Tuesday, April 16, 2013
    Montgomery County Human Services Center
    Community Room, Main Floor, 2 p.m. & 6 p.m.
    1430 DeKalb Pike, Norristown, PA 19404

    Philadelphia County | Wednesday, April 17, 2013
    SEPTA Board Room, 11 a.m. & 5 p.m.
    1234 Market Street, Philadelphia, PA 19107

    Chester County | Friday, April 19, 2013
    West Chester Borough Hall
    County Chambers, 2 p.m. & 6 p.m.
    401 E. Gay Street, West Chester, PA 19380

    Bucks County | Monday, April 22, 2013
    Bucks County Free Library
    Pearl Buck Room, 2 p.m. & 6 p.m.
    150 S. Pine Street, Doylestown, PA 18901

    You can also click here SEPTA | Public Hearing| Fiscal Year 2014 Capital Budget and use the comments form at the bottom of the page or send an email/letter to the addresses provided.


    I ask again: what other major City has removed unlimited passes with the lame excuse of pass abuse???

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by mixiboi View Post
    Happens all the time. I seen it..hell SEPTA has it on camera, and a big profile news story a couple of weeks ago:

    SEPTA: Mom, Grandmom Dodge Fare, Leave Baby Behind | NBC 10 Philadelphia

    And SEPTA did nothing about that...Tho now that they will have a $150 fare evasion fee..we will see what happens.



    But I want to know what happens after 200 taps? It might be a problem on the EL/Subway, but I doubt bus drivers will turn people away...
    that's hardly proof that it happens all the time and it involves a day pass, not an unlimited pass which block pass backs already. that story is a good example of why it's moronic of septa. the lady uses septa every day but she had the day off, why should septa care if the eight ride inconvenience pass is used by the lady and her aunt or just her? did she buy eight rides or not? in my experience its far more common for fare evaders to simply jump the turnstyle. for all the shenanigans they put riders through, they aren't significantly more efficient than their peers, they're only notable for not issuing debt for projects with no return, like new payment systems. their low debt level is what separates septa from other agencies.
    Last edited by eldondre; 04-15-2013 at 03:30 PM.
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  12. #12
    Member phillyTIM's Avatar
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    Exclamation

    So now that I've had a chance to digest SEPTA's response, a few interesting things come to mind based upon that response I've posted above.

    SEPTA proposes to put artificial use limits based upon an artificial guess of pass sharing abuse due to eliminating the M/F sticker. Wow. Who here gives SEPTA money and isn't enraged by this?

    Does anybody know what other transit system(s) in other comparable cities has/have imposed ride limits (of which a transfer counts as a whole ride penalty) on their weekly or monthly transit passes? Let alone which ones did this under the auspice of any success to fight 'pass sharing abuse'?

    It would be interesting for SEPTA to share with us the data how it came to the conclusion that this would only affect "one percent" of ridership; especially with so many that need multiple transfers to commute each day along with any errand/emergency rides, which is what entices us to choose and pay significant money for an unlimited weekly or monthly pass that all comparable cities do offer. That's why they call them "weekly" or "monthly" passes and no other city, especially comparable cities to Philadelphia, that I can tell of refrains from their use.

    And yeah...just why exactly is SEPTA forcing a choice to impose ride limits OR raise TransPass fares even more than the current expected increase, just because they don't put M/F stickers on the TransPass?

    SEPTA's only justification sounds awfully weak and appears to come off with a starkly suspicious goal of indirectly milking more money out of its ridership with these artificial limits (which are actually pretty low limits in real-life practice, as others have expressed).
    Last edited by phillyTIM; 04-15-2013 at 10:24 PM.

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    When i exceed my limit, which i will, i am going to get killed bc i take the regional rail. I work 7 days a week, have 2 jobs, and am a student, so im def going to exceed (i already calculated). I might just drive to northern liberties and bike to work if septa implements this. Im fortunate to have a car, and fit enough to bike. I really feel for folks who are 100% dependent on septa.

    i thought public transportation is supose to discourage driving, bu really its encouraging me.

  14. #14
    Senior Member Gladys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slin03 View Post
    When i exceed my limit, which i will, i am going to get killed bc i take the regional rail. I work 7 days a week, have 2 jobs, and am a student, so im def going to exceed (i already calculated). I might just drive to northern liberties and bike to work if septa implements this. Im fortunate to have a car, and fit enough to bike. I really feel for folks who are 100% dependent on septa.

    i thought public transportation is supose to discourage driving, bu really its encouraging me.
    agreed. this is ridiculous. they think pass sharing is that rampant ? there has to be a better way causte this one is ridiculous.
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    Quote Originally Posted by slin03 View Post
    When i exceed my limit, which i will, i am going to get killed bc i take the regional rail. I work 7 days a week, have 2 jobs, and am a student, so im def going to exceed (i already calculated). I might just drive to northern liberties and bike to work if septa implements this. Im fortunate to have a car, and fit enough to bike. I really feel for folks who are 100% dependent on septa.

    i thought public transportation is supose to discourage driving, bu really its encouraging me.
    I'm guessing you are an extreme exception to ridership. But still, I agree with the point that the point of the transpass is unlimited rides.

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    I have a better idea, put a photo on the smart card. My university already issues an ID with a photo. My sams club card even has my photo.

  17. #17
    Member phillyTIM's Avatar
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    Slin03 may be on the more extreme ridership side, Adam (thanks for your support, by the way), but I'd easily bet that he's not unlike many others in every other City. I mean, there are also many at the other end of the "unlimited" pass spectrum that would use it for pretty much just 2 rides a day and the occasional extra one; they get the unlimited because they don't want to be fumbling with coins and repeated trips to purchase fares. It all evens out. That's how big city transportation systems are used.

    I'm not an extreme user, however because each transfer is counted as a full penalized trip, I probably will easily brush up against that 50/week mark...and that's just not right...when you've got to take a bus, then a subway, then another bus to get to work. And lord help me if I wish to make my way to a movie or where some friends are; each joint will further penalize the allocation that SEPTA proposes. I'm just sayin' it all adds up to 50+/week quickly, and I'd bet for more than the "one percent" of ridership that SEPTA claims will be affected.

    And then there is the psychological effect of the ride limits. How long before we start thinking "OMG I better not go here or there because it might bump against my SEPTA-allocated-limit and I need to get to work the rest of the week"? Which is another reason why people fork over the chunk of money for passes, to not be bothered with the stress of worrying.

    Tourism is yet another reason cities have unlimited passes. If people are here for a week or a month for work or pleasure, they want to get around and enjoy the City...so they buy the TransPasses. When I'm in NYC for a week, that's exactly what I get.

    Philadelphia is a big city with many transportation needs and joints for people to get to where we're going. Not only that, every other major City has "unlimited" weekly & monthly passes...from San Francisco thru Boston.

    I've done the research and monthly unlimited passes range between Chicago's $70 to New York City's $112...so Philadelphia's unlimited monthly $92 is neither a steal nor a bargain for what you get really. We're on par and that's a good thing--and that's where we should expect to be and to have and to fight to keep available, right?
    Last edited by phillyTIM; 04-16-2013 at 10:25 AM.

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    Based on what I heard at the hearing in Media last night, SEPTA got the message and is backing away from this particular proposal. Bob Clearfield and I brought it up in a meeting with Rich Burnfield (SEPTA treasurer) last month, and subsequently submitted some alternative approaches that would spare the people who have good reason to be boarding 8 or more vehicles per day.

    While that's all well and good, what matters is what's in the tariffs, and until SEPTA submits revised tariffs, we need all of you to come out to the hearings and speak about this, the flaws of the NPT system, and anything else you disagree with in the proposed tariffs. Today is Norristown: 2:00 and 6:00, and tomorrow is 1234 Market St.: 11:00 and 5:00.

    DVARP's statements are posted over at http://www.facebook.com/groups/93322220733/ and should be up on our main website soon.

    Matt Mitchell
    President
    Delaware Valley Association of Rail Passengers

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    Quote Originally Posted by mdmitchell View Post
    Based on what I heard at the hearing in Media last night, SEPTA got the message and is backing away from this particular proposal. Bob Clearfield and I brought it up in a meeting with Rich Burnfield (SEPTA treasurer) last month, and subsequently submitted some alternative approaches that would spare the people who have good reason to be boarding 8 or more vehicles per day.

    While that's all well and good, what matters is what's in the tariffs, and until SEPTA submits revised tariffs, we need all of you to come out to the hearings and speak about this, the flaws of the NPT system, and anything else you disagree with in the proposed tariffs. Today is Norristown: 2:00 and 6:00, and tomorrow is 1234 Market St.: 11:00 and 5:00.

    DVARP's statements are posted over at http://www.facebook.com/groups/93322220733/ and should be up on our main website soon.

    Matt Mitchell
    President
    Delaware Valley Association of Rail Passengers
    Why can't they just count linked trips as one "ride" for these purposes? I don't see how that opens the system to any more abuse.

  20. #20
    Member phillyTIM's Avatar
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    Thanks for the info, Matt; sounds like we have a sign of hope.

    We shouldn't need to be fighting this though, because SEPTA shouldn't be at all castrating what will still be called the "Weekly TransPass" and the "Monthly TransPass"!

    This is all just so ridiculous based upon a ruse of baseless, hypothetical "pass sharing" that no other major city transit authority has ever attempted!

    We need to fight this until that horse is dead and the proposed TransPass ride limits are wiped off any proposal or signed document!
    Last edited by phillyTIM; 04-16-2013 at 10:31 AM.

 

 

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