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  1. #1
    Dixie Normus ArcticSplash's Avatar
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    Default Do You Support 3AM/4AM Bar Closing for Philly? Tell Council Now.

    Nutter is looking under rocks for a quick win for easy tax money.

    Here's your chance to get bar hours in Philadelphia extended 1 or 2 extra hours.

    Note: NYC bar closing is at 4AM. Philadelphia is at 2. Thousands of Philadelphians hold after-hours memberships so they can get that extra hour of drink on. It seems like a BIG easy win for city businesses and for ED tax revenue to extend bar closing to 3AM or 4AM.



    BRB is asking on Twitter if this is an acceptable idea.


    If you have Twitter, then write to her right now... these two people are listening:

    @CouncilwomanBRB
    @Michael_Nutter

  2. #2
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    that'd be a hit in Olde City haha.

  3. #3
    Senior Member gren's Avatar
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    I don't see how it could really hurt? I think other ordinances would disallow it being outside that late. And most places where it would be a problem tend to get limits on liquor licenses anyways. Will moving it back 2 hours really create much extra noise? I imagine it might just shift the closing time noise.

  4. #4
    Dixie Normus ArcticSplash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gren View Post
    I don't see how it could really hurt? I think other ordinances would disallow it being outside that late. And most places where it would be a problem tend to get limits on liquor licenses anyways. Will moving it back 2 hours really create much extra noise? I imagine it might just shift the closing time noise.
    You also have generations of peeps that are used to them snapping shut at 2.

    With a no-closing environment like AC it's actually way easier---you don't push all the commotion out on to the street all at once. That's why Center City at 1:50AM is such an ordeal, especially if you happen to be driving at that hour (or the unlucky soul who boards a Drunk Bus).


    I predict that a lot of people will still turn in at 2, but the kiddos will keep on goin' to 3-4. It will also put a crimp in the afterhours establishments in town but there really aren't that many of them. Most neighborhoods only have 1 after-hours club, and they can just be extended out the extra hour as well.

  5. #5
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    DC is 3 am, it's a good idea. 2 am closing creates more problems than it solves
    "It has shown me that everything is illuminated in the light of the past"
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    So are the bar owners responsible for paying an extra fee to stay open an hour or so later, or is this extra tax imposed on patrons? And how will the City account for the extra revenue based on a mostly cash-based establishment? This idea will have a domino effect on City bar owners - if this is passed, and the tax is based on patrons' increased revenue during the extra hours, bar owners will ultimately be paying more in the NPT tax. And does the extra revenue taxed thru NPT get filtered to the schools? Either way, I am against any more taxes - we all pay way to many taxes as it is and the City still keeps crying poor. The solution is not thru more taxation - the solution is found within responsible fiscal management of funds.

  7. #7
    Dixie Normus ArcticSplash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtnmama View Post
    So are the bar owners responsible for paying an extra fee to stay open an hour or so later, or is this extra tax imposed on patrons? And how will the City account for the extra revenue based on a mostly cash-based establishment? This idea will have a domino effect on City bar owners - if this is passed, and the tax is based on patrons' increased revenue during the extra hours, bar owners will ultimately be paying more in the NPT tax. And does the extra revenue taxed thru NPT get filtered to the schools? Either way, I am against any more taxes - we all pay way to many taxes as it is and the City still keeps crying poor. The solution is not thru more taxation - the solution is found within responsible fiscal management of funds.
    No, this is giving bar/restuaraunts the *option* to move Last Call to 3AM when bars are forced to shut down.

    BRB is just asking questions. None of the legislative aides at City Council has actually drafted anything, much less put strings attached (like special licenses or fees) to moving Last Call further in the morning.

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    I'm for it! The city could force all bars/clubs to pay a fee and let them decide if they want to stay open to 4:00 with last call at 3:30. Even if the hours are extended for only Wed, Thur, Fri and Sat nights that would make a big difference. It gives people more time to party/hang out, it would stop the mad dash to get extra drunk at 1:30 because you know last call is coming soon. And it would keep all the drunks off the road at 2:00 am when more people besides drunks are out traveling. Not saying people non-drunks don't travel at 4:00 am but as the night goes on the amount of people on the roads and out and about usually decrease, even in NYC.

    Now Septa need to get their act together and run regional rail service all night even if it's at 1.25 hour headways after 2:30 AM or only outbound service from Center City after 2AM.

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    HELL no. Philadelphia is not New York or DC. 4AM closings would not work here the way things are now. There is too much of an idiot faction here (patrons AND certain bar owners) that would ruin it for everyone.

    For example: Recess has had a lot of problems with staying open later, requiring extra resources:

    This particular location has required that the Philadelphia Police respond to 29 disturbances in the past 12 months.
    Old City Civic Association

    At least with a 2AM closing, people are cleared out of areas like Old City by 3AM. If all the nightclubs were allowed to stay open until 4--and they all would; only the normal bars and restaurants that don't create problems anyway would choose to close earlier--the screaming, puking, cars blasting music, etc. would last until 5AM.

    It does not make any sense to support a 4AM closing before all the current bar issues are addressed and resolved. As it is, there are too many places that can't even handle being open until 2AM.

  10. #10
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    Ah old city opposing change. Theres nothibg fundamentally different.about dc or.ny thay we cant handle it. Youve got.it.backwards. Its the 2 am close that forces everyone out at once. With a later close people leave in smaller groups and.cause less of a ruckus...though thats mainly with a 4 am rather than.3 am.close. You could alwo have a maximum number per sq mi. Im sure therea a reasonable approach that could work if we can.get past the knee jerk opposition
    "It has shown me that everything is illuminated in the light of the past"
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluecuracao View Post
    HELL no. Philadelphia is not New York or DC. 4AM closings would not work here the way things are now. There is too much of an idiot faction here (patrons AND certain bar owners) that would ruin it for everyone.

    For example: Recess has had a lot of problems with staying open later, requiring extra resources:



    Old City Civic Association

    At least with a 2AM closing, people are cleared out of areas like Old City by 3AM. If all the nightclubs were allowed to stay open until 4--and they all would; only the normal bars and restaurants that don't create problems anyway would choose to close earlier--the screaming, puking, cars blasting music, etc. would last until 5AM.

    It does not make any sense to support a 4AM closing before all the current bar issues are addressed and resolved. As it is, there are too many places that can't even handle being open until 2AM.
    I couldn't have said it any better! In a city where crime is spiraling and our safety resources are diminishing, keeping bars open even one more extra hour would result in more drunk drivers on the roads, more victims of drunk drivers, increased physical assaults and an overall decline in our quality of life. So, just like the fire brown outs and the threat of cutting cops, this proposal by Nutter and this Councilperson shows to me that they value money over the safety of the people they are supposed to be representing. Instead of this ridiculous idea, find some fiscal responsibility by first cleaning house in City Hall. Cut the mayor's salary in half. Cut the Council's salary in half. Cut the amount of aids each Council Rep. has in half. And cut their salaries in half, too. Have City Council drive their own damn cars. Or better yet, have them use Septa, like the rest of us working drones. Remove Council's credit cards from their wallets. Recoup all the millions owed in back taxes from all excessively delinquent property owners and business owners. Put a tax on all corporate billboards. Recoup all the millions owed the city from bail jumpers. Increase the fines imposed on criminals. Just a few ideas from Jo Regular Girl. Someone whose ideas are not based on egotistical greed, a lawyer's lust for twisting the truth or a politician's hard-on for power!

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by eldondre View Post
    Ah old city opposing change. Theres nothibg fundamentally different.about dc or.ny thay we cant handle it. Youve got.it.backwards. Its the 2 am close that forces everyone out at once. With a later close people leave in smaller groups and.cause less of a ruckus...though thats mainly with a 4 am rather than.3 am.close. You could alwo have a maximum number per sq mi. Im sure therea a reasonable approach that could work if we can.get past the knee jerk opposition
    If that's true, then we have to handle it first. Right now we don't, although progress is slowly being made.

    The 2AM closing time isn't the cause of the problems. The problems stem from nuisance bars ignoring liquor laws and then exacerbated by lack of police resources. Once those are handled and crowds/groups behave better, then I might believe a later closing time wouldn't make things worse.

    If some bars are allowed to stay open later and others aren't, patrons from the latter will head over to the former. Some weekend night, stay late in OC and witness the mass exodus to Recess right before closing time. Others head out of the immediate neighborhood to Zee Bar.

    Knee jerk? Too funny. We've discussed this before on PB, and years later I still stand by my opinion.

  13. #13
    Appetizer supersupper's Avatar
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    At first you would probably see the dispersed exodus, but kids sleep all day to stay out late- once they get a groove on, no one wants to leave till they have to: wether it be 2am, 3am, of 4am.

    It's worth a shot for OC though because by the time the new normal of 3/4 am commences, another neighborhood will hopefully have taken over as the "in" place.
    SooooooooooooooooPER ........................ SL O WD O WN

  14. #14
    I know that dude! Spicoli's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluecuracao View Post
    HELL no. Philadelphia is not New York or DC. 4AM closings would not work here the way things are now. There is too much of an idiot faction here (patrons AND certain bar owners) that would ruin it for everyone.

    For example: Recess has had a lot of problems with staying open later, requiring extra resources:



    Old City Civic Association

    At least with a 2AM closing, people are cleared out of areas like Old City by 3AM. If all the nightclubs were allowed to stay open until 4--and they all would; only the normal bars and restaurants that don't create problems anyway would choose to close earlier--the screaming, puking, cars blasting music, etc. would last until 5AM.

    It does not make any sense to support a 4AM closing before all the current bar issues are addressed and resolved. As it , there are too many places that can't even handle being open until 2AM.
    You're right. There's absolutely no idiots in NYC or DC, so they don't have that problem at all.

    Recess and Zee-bar and such have the problems they have because they are but a small handful of places still open at those hours of the night. If the closing hour for most places was pushed back an hour two, the rush to get to these after hour bars would greatly diminish and you would see fewer and fewer idiots out in the street at once. They would fall off in smaller groups as the night wears on.

    I'm far from bragging here; but I've been out in NYC at 3:30 and 4am. Its pretty much dead by that time. I would peacefully go home. The people that are the hard core clubbers don't go out at night until midnight anyway. They aren't out for the drinking and idiot scene as much as they are out for the dancing and club scene.

    Finally, here's a newsflash. Bars don't "close" at 2am. They close to the people that they don't know. I've stayed in many a bar till 3 or 4 am once you get to know the folks running the bar. Might as well legalize it and collect the sales tax.

    A nuisance bar is going to be a nuisance bar whether it closes at 4am or 10pm.
    Last edited by Spicoli; 06-05-2011 at 12:21 AM.

  15. #15
    Senior Member gren's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtnmama View Post
    I couldn't have said it any better! In a city where crime is spiraling and our safety resources are diminishing, keeping bars open even one more extra hour would result in more drunk drivers on the roads, more victims of drunk drivers, increased physical assaults and an overall decline in our quality of life. So, just like the fire brown outs and the threat of cutting cops, this proposal by Nutter and this Councilperson shows to me that they value money over the safety of the people they are supposed to be representing. Instead of this ridiculous idea, find some fiscal responsibility by first cleaning house in City Hall. Cut the mayor's salary in half. Cut the Council's salary in half. Cut the amount of aids each Council Rep. has in half. And cut their salaries in half, too. Have City Council drive their own damn cars. Or better yet, have them use Septa, like the rest of us working drones. Remove Council's credit cards from their wallets. Recoup all the millions owed in back taxes from all excessively delinquent property owners and business owners. Put a tax on all corporate billboards. Recoup all the millions owed the city from bail jumpers. Increase the fines imposed on criminals. Just a few ideas from Jo Regular Girl. Someone whose ideas are not based on egotistical greed, a lawyer's lust for twisting the truth or a politician's hard-on for power!
    Wait, how is crime spiraling and why do you think this will lead to some massive increase in crime? I'm pretty sure if you look at bar closing times around the world it won't have much correlation with crime levels. And even in the context of Philadelphia I think it's hard at best to tell what the outcome would be.

  16. #16
    Dixie Normus ArcticSplash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spicoli View Post
    Finally, here's a newsflash. Bars don't "close" at 2am. They close to the people that they don't know. I've stayed in many a bar till 3 or 4 am once you get to know the folks running the bar. Might as well legalize it and collect the sales tax.
    The "smoking ban" also "lifts" at 2AM too.

  17. #17
    Senior Member Gladys's Avatar
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    Buffalo has a 4am curfew. I've always thought it was weird not to. It wouldn't hurt as most people leave earlier but then there wouldn't be the mass of people on the street at 2 am. Maybe less difficulties. Then again maybe not. either way i don't see the down side. In my personal experience there aren't that many people who stay that late. This would be great especially for nuisance bars because it will stagger (pardon the pun) the time people leave. Maybe less fights and shootings

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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spicoli View Post
    You're right. There's absolutely no idiots in NYC or DC, so they don't have that problem at all.

    Recess and Zee-bar and such have the problems they have because they are but a small handful of places still open at those hours of the night. If the closing hour for most places was pushed back an hour two, the rush to get to these after hour bars would greatly diminish and you would see fewer and fewer idiots out in the street at once. They would fall off in smaller groups as the night wears on.

    I'm far from bragging here; but I've been out in NYC at 3:30 and 4am. Its pretty much dead by that time. I would peacefully go home. The people that are the hard core clubbers don't go out at night until midnight anyway. They aren't out for the drinking and idiot scene as much as they are out for the dancing and club scene.
    Okay...so NY doesn't have that problem, correct? I haven't been in a NY club at closing time in a few years, but my experience was similar to yours.

    I moved out of DC about 10 years ago, and the Adams Morgan neighborhood a couple of years before that, so I don't have first-hand knowledge of the concentrated nightlife problems they apparently have had recently. After doing some googling, I see that it got really bad, at least up to 2008. DC has had a 3AM closing time as long as I can remember, and most everyone stayed until closing as they reportedly do now.

    Adams Morgan now has their own nightly security force that works with police. There are no recent stories that I saw about rampant violence, so hopefully it has been effective.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spicoli View Post
    Finally, here's a newsflash. Bars don't "close" at 2am. They close to the people that they don't know. I've stayed in many a bar till 3 or 4 am once you get to know the folks running the bar. Might as well legalize it and collect the sales tax.

    A nuisance bar is going to be a nuisance bar whether it closes at 4am or 10pm.
    That is not exactly a newsflash, sorry. It is not the same thing as every obnoxious knucklehead being allowed to stay until 3 or 4.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtnmama View Post
    I couldn't have said it any better! In a city where crime is spiraling ...
    Gonna stop you there. If you're wrong at the beginning of your premise, the rest is going to be wrong.

    Crime isn't spiraling anywhere.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by supersupper View Post
    At first you would probably see the dispersed exodus, but kids sleep all day to stay out late- once they get a groove on, no one wants to leave till they have to: wether it be 2am, 3am, of 4am.

    It's worth a shot for OC though because by the time the new normal of 3/4 am commences, another neighborhood will hopefully have taken over as the "in" place.
    Not really. There's only a subset of people that will stay later.
    yes blue its a hysterical knee jerk opposition but that's what it oc residents do isn't it?

    Adams Morgan is pretty similar to oc. DC is doing just fine as is Adams Morgan. Currently the few after hours bars are overcrowded.
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