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  1. #1
    Senior Member gren's Avatar
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    Default Wicsonsin Public Emloyees

    MADISON, Wis. — As four game wardens awkwardly stood guard, protesters, scores deep, crushed into a corridor leading to the governor’s office here on Wednesday, their screams echoing through the Capitol: “Come out, come out, wherever you are!”

    Behind closed doors, Scott Walker, the Republican who has been governor for about six weeks, calmly described his intent to forge ahead with the plans that had set off the uprising: He wants to require public workers to pay more for their health insurance and pensions, effectively cutting the take-home pay of many by around 7 percent.

    He also wants to weaken most public-sector unions by sharply curtailing their collective bargaining rights, limiting talks to the subject of basic wages.

    Mr. Walker said he had no other options, since he is facing a deficit of $137 million in the current state budget and the prospect of a $3.6 billion hole in the coming two-year budget.

    ...
    --New York Times

    My biggest problem is the state trying to limit collective bargaining. They don't have to agree to wage increases, but the unions have the right to bargain on behalf of its workers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gren View Post
    --New York Times

    My biggest problem is the state trying to limit collective bargaining. They don't have to agree to wage increases, but the unions have the right to bargain on behalf of its workers.
    In a time of 9% unemployment, you would think those with jobs would be more than happy to take a 7% pay "cut". Sadly this is coming to philly soon since they will be laying off teachers. We will see if my pregnant wife will have a job next year... or if they will fire her because the union won't negotiate their pension, health insurance etc. Pretty crazy that the teachers all received their raises going into this year. If Ackerman knew they were in trouble, why not make changes after Obama's bailout? But I digress...
    Last edited by JCO4O1; 02-17-2011 at 08:45 PM.

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    Dixie Normus ArcticSplash's Avatar
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    It looks like the Democrats who fled Wisconsin have been found. They're staying at a Best Western in Illinois.

    Budget Battle: Democrats Who Left State are Located | Newsradio 620 - Milwaukee, Wisconsin News, Talk, Sports, Weather | Local Headlines


    It looks like on RedState they did some mental masturbation and came up with a way for Republicans to run-around the issue of a quorum call:

    WI Showdown: Democrats *not* needed for regular business?
    Posted by Moe Lane (Profile)
    Thursday, February 17th at 2:31PM EST
    16 Comments
    I direct you to the Wisconsin state constitution. Article IV, Section 7 (Organization of legislature; quorum; compulsory attendance):

    Each house shall be the judge of the elections, returns and qualifications of its own members; and a majority of each shall constitute a quorum to do business, but a smaller number may adjourn from day to day, and may compel the attendance of absent members in such manner and under such penalties as each house may provide.

    Article VIII, SECTION 8 (Vote on fiscal bills; quorum)

    On the passage in either house of the legislature of any law which imposes, continues or renews a tax, or creates a debt or charge, or makes, continues or renews an appropriation of public or trust money, or releases, discharges or commutes a claim or demand of the state, the question shall be taken by yeas and nays, which shall be duly entered on the journal; and three-fifths of all the members elected to such house shall in all such cases be required to constitute a quorum therein.

    Which apparently means, as the person who passed this along to the person who passed this along to me notes, that all the Wisconsin Senate has to do is separate out the portion of the budget bill that involves collective bargaining, pass that with a simple majority, and lo! Problem solved, and no more excuses for Wisconsin Senate Democrats to hide like little scared bunnies.

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    Good thing those on the left don't use violent rhetoric and pictures.



  5. #5
    Senior Member gren's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JCO4O1 View Post
    In a time of 9% unemployment, you would think those with jobs would be more than happy to take a 7% pay "cut". Sadly this is coming to philly soon since they will be laying off teachers. We will see if my pregnant wife will have a job next year... or if they will fire her because the union won't negotiate their pension, health insurance etc. Pretty crazy that the teachers all received their raises going into this year. If Ackerman knew they were in trouble, why not make changes after Obama's bailout? But I digress...
    No. Why would employees ever be happy with pay cuts? That's not how it works in public or private sector. But here's the thing. The Union can draw a line in the sand if they want but under collective bargaining you have to come agreement. My problem with this is he's trying to take away collective bargaining power. In times of budget crisis the state can and should take a hard line to do what they can with the budget they have. And I think pay cuts are reasonable. I think the 100% seniority system disincentivizes 'tenured' teachers from accepting reasonable cuts for the good of all teachers since they know the burden will fall on newer teachers. I don't think experience is unimportant but it's not the factor that should decide retention. And clearly Ackerman and the SRC didn't help things with how they used ARRA funds--and Jerry Jordan hasn't done a whole lot either (besides tell us that seniority is what matters while not stopping the district from wasting money on Ackerman's pet projects).

    Best of luck to you and your wife.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JCO4O1 View Post
    Good thing those on the left don't use violent rhetoric and pictures.


    The left? They are public employees, not the weather underground. Why does everyone view everything under the lens of talk radio?

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    Quote Originally Posted by JCO4O1 View Post
    Good thing those on the left don't use violent rhetoric and pictures.


    Where did you find these?

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    Quote Originally Posted by gren View Post
    No. Why would employees ever be happy with pay cuts? That's not how it works in public or private sector. But here's the thing. The Union can draw a line in the sand if they want but under collective bargaining you have to come agreement. My problem with this is he's trying to take away collective bargaining power. In times of budget crisis the state can and should take a hard line to do what they can with the budget they have. And I think pay cuts are reasonable. I think the 100% seniority system disincentivizes 'tenured' teachers from accepting reasonable cuts for the good of all teachers since they know the burden will fall on newer teachers. I don't think experience is unimportant but it's not the factor that should decide retention. And clearly Ackerman and the SRC didn't help things with how they used ARRA funds--and Jerry Jordan hasn't done a whole lot either (besides tell us that seniority is what matters while not stopping the district from wasting money on Ackerman's pet projects).

    Best of luck to you and your wife.
    My statement was taking a 7% "cut" (which is still having them pay less into their pension and insurance than the national average) isn't nearly as bad as losing your job... and not nearly as bad as what us in the private sector have dealt with so far. While the private sector has been losing their jobs and insurance, these private sector employees have been getting raises. Anybody that either runs a business or pays the bills knows that you can't afford to pay your workers more when you are losing money. A 7% cut is nothing, at least they have jobs.

    Thanks for your kind words. I have faith that they will work something out and avoid the layoffs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Geno View Post
    The left? They are public employees, not the weather underground. Why does everyone view everything under the lens of talk radio?
    Unions and their employees tend to be left of center. Unions fund democrats. Not sure why it wouldn't be reasonable to think that the man holding the Scott Walker is Hitler sign is a democrat.

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    Wisconsin is only in this crap because the governor saw Chris Christie on 60 Minutes and figured he could reproduce Christie's success fighting the NJEA. It appears that Wisconsin's issues with teachers are totally different than New Jersey's, given New Jersey has absolutely no more room to raise taxes; because Christie as we all know got into office thanks to several issues, one of which is the likelihood that the NJ Property Tax Rebate plan would be negated by new tax hikes which were caused by public school outlay, which didn't sit very well with the childless population in NJ (namely seniors).

    NJ didn't have its legislature fail to make a quorum call and have its minority legislators flee the state ala Texas Democrats during (now convicted ) Tom Delay's flash-in-the-pan redistricting effort to split heavily Latino districts in Texas to turn more areas of South Texas over to Republican control.


    Wisconsin DOES have a problem with welfare abuse in that state, namely all their weird home-grown programs that have no metrics or state control... like for instance the babysitter credit that allows related family members to get paid by the state for babysitting each other's children.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BarryG View Post
    Where did you find these?
    Just a google image search. There are much worse signs out there that they have been showing on the news. Here are the websites:

    The PJ Tatler » Photos: WI protesters call Gov. Walker a dictator, put crosshairs on his face

    Althouse: Protesting Gov. Scott Walker's union-busting budget at the Wisconsin Capitol today.

    Also, it's not just a few bad signs, here are some more:



    Here's some video:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=71gsnLfsbbM
    Last edited by JCO4O1; 02-17-2011 at 11:31 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MayfairMeat View Post
    Wisconsin is only in this crap because the governor saw Chris Christie on 60 Minutes and figured he could reproduce Christie's success fighting the NJEA. It appears that Wisconsin's issues with teachers are totally different than New Jersey's, given New Jersey has absolutely no more room to raise taxes; because Christie as we all know got into office thanks to several issues, one of which is the likelihood that the NJ Property Tax Rebate plan would be negated by new tax hikes which were caused by public school outlay, which didn't sit very well with the childless population in NJ (namely seniors).

    NJ didn't have its legislature fail to make a quorum call and have its minority legislators flee the state ala Texas Democrats during (now convicted ) Tom Delay's flash-in-the-pan redistricting effort to split heavily Latino districts in Texas to turn more areas of South Texas over to Republican control.


    Wisconsin DOES have a problem with welfare abuse in that state, namely all their weird home-grown programs that have no metrics or state control... like for instance the babysitter credit that allows related family members to get paid by the state for babysitting each other's children.
    Polling is showing that Americans are on the side of Christie. I believe that if there were a national poll on the Wicsonsin situation, that the majority would side with the gov.

    On a side note, I believe the first side to propose cuts to Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid will get a lot more support that they suspect. This waiting game between the right and Obama is just getting annoying. Get it over with already.

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    Dixie Normus ArcticSplash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JCO4O1 View Post
    Polling is showing that Americans are on the side of Christie. I believe that if there were a national poll on the Wicsonsin situation, that the majority would side with the gov.

    On a side note, I believe the first side to propose cuts to Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid will get a lot more support that they suspect. This waiting game between the right and Obama is just getting annoying. Get it over with already.

    It's not a left/right issue. It's an old vs. young one.

    Old people who are Soco are staunchly in support of Medicare and Social Security because they are recipients of the benefits, including most straight-ticket Republican voters.

    Libertarians that are my age that have never held any realistic belief that they would ever be able to draw Social Security or Medicare, because the writing is on the wall that these two programs are going down the tubes, are much more open to drastic reform.


    So you are going to see lines drawn based on how old the population is. Look at Maine which has the highest number of Social Security recipients per capita than any other state in the Union including Florida. High support for these government programs and Maine is a traditionally Republican state, but it's been virtually abandoned by the Tea Party (they hate Olympia Snowe with a purple passion) because Maine residents hold popular support for most government entitlements since so many Maine residents use them, including the Republican voters.

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    I think we need to focus on the need or lack thereof of public employee unions. An union is tantamount to saying "we can't trust the government to treat its employees right so we need to bargain." If that's the case, why would I want to be liberal instead of libertarian/conservative? Yes, let's have this government which we can't trust to treat its employees correctly run a bigger share of our lives.

    And here's FDR on public employee unions: FDR's warning: Public employee unions a no-no

    "... Meticulous attention should be paid to the special relationships and obligations of public servants to the public itself and to the government. All Government employees should realize that the process of collective bargaining, as usually understood, cannot be transplanted into the public service. It has its distinct and insurmountable limitations ... The very nature and purposes of Government make it impossible for ... officials ... to bind the employer ... The employer is the whole people, who speak by means of laws enacted by their representatives ...

    "Particularly, I want to emphasize my conviction that militant tactics have no place in the functions of any organization of government employees. Upon employees in the federal service rests the obligation to serve the whole people ... This obligation is paramount ... A strike of public employees manifests nothing less than an intent ... to prevent or obstruct ... Government ... Such action, looking toward the paralysis of Government ... is unthinkable and intolerable."

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    Quote Originally Posted by MayfairMeat View Post
    It's not a left/right issue. It's an old vs. young one.

    Old people who are Soco are staunchly in support of Medicare and Social Security because they are recipients of the benefits, including most straight-ticket Republican voters.

    Libertarians that are my age that have never held any realistic belief that they would ever be able to draw Social Security or Medicare, because the writing is on the wall that these two programs are going down the tubes, are much more open to drastic reform.


    So you are going to see lines drawn based on how old the population is. Look at Maine which has the highest number of Social Security recipients per capita than any other state in the Union including Florida. High support for these government programs and Maine is a traditionally Republican state, but it's been virtually abandoned by the Tea Party (they hate Olympia Snowe with a purple passion) because Maine residents hold popular support for most government entitlements since so many Maine residents use them, including the Republican voters.
    From what I understand, nobody is talking about cutting benefits to those already receiving them. I guess it is a battle not necessarily between "old people" but those that are about to retire in the next 10-15 years and the rest of America? Seems like a no-brainer, not sure why nobody is choosing to lead on the issue. It must be the fear of being attacked by the other side as being the grinch that wants to take away your benefits.

    Quote Originally Posted by geoffrobinson View Post
    I think we need to focus on the need or lack thereof of public employee unions. An union is tantamount to saying "we can't trust the government to treat its employees right so we need to bargain." If that's the case, why would I want to be liberal instead of libertarian/conservative? Yes, let's have this government which we can't trust to treat its employees correctly run a bigger share of our lives.

    And here's FDR on public employee unions: FDR's warning: Public employee unions a no-no
    Public pays taxes to the Government. Government uses money to pay public employees. Public employees pay union dues. Unions give money and support Democrats. Democrats pass policy to support unions and keep them happy.

    Therefore, the public gives money to support democrats. Seems like pretty sweet deal for the left, why would you want to ruin all of the fun?

  16. #16
    Senior Member gren's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by geoffrobinson View Post
    I think we need to focus on the need or lack thereof of public employee unions. An union is tantamount to saying "we can't trust the government to treat its employees right so we need to bargain." If that's the case, why would I want to be liberal instead of libertarian/conservative? Yes, let's have this government which we can't trust to treat its employees correctly run a bigger share of our lives.
    It's not about trust it's about negotiation. You don't have a union to make you trust your boss, you have a union to bargain for better pay and represent you. I fail to see how there's a contradiction between thinking the government can have proactive policies (i.e. NOx emissions limitations) and that the workers hired to enact those limitations have the right to bargain with the government over pay. And workers can't bind the employer. Look at Wisconsin, does it look the like the legislature is bound? In Philly they're renegotiating class size rules with the District. The problem isn't collective bargaining as much as governments that aren't bargaining well and a populace that ignores the process until times like this.

    Quote Originally Posted by JCO4O1 View Post
    Public pays taxes to the Government. Government uses money to pay public employees. Public employees pay union dues. Unions give money and support Democrats. Democrats pass policy to support unions and keep them happy.

    Therefore, the public gives money to support democrats. Seems like pretty sweet deal for the left, why would you want to ruin all of the fun?
    Well, it's not that unions give money to Democrats. It's unions give money to candidates who support them and parties that support their platform. I'm sure you see that it's the same thing with Social Security/Medicare. Republicans are trying to cut a deficit without changing the 3 largest parts of our budget. Why? Because old voters vote for them and if Republicans went all out against Social Security and Medicare they wouldn't win minority votes, they wouldn't win youth votes, and they wouldn't win elderly votes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MayfairMeat View Post
    It looks like the Democrats who fled Wisconsin have been found. They're staying at a Best Western in Illinois.

    Budget Battle: Democrats Who Left State are Located | Newsradio 620 - Milwaukee, Wisconsin News, Talk, Sports, Weather | Local Headlines
    The Clocktower is a resort.

    I used to hold meetings there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gren View Post
    Well, it's not that unions give money to Democrats. It's unions give money to candidates who support them and parties that support their platform. I'm sure you see that it's the same thing with Social Security/Medicare. Republicans are trying to cut a deficit without changing the 3 largest parts of our budget. Why? Because old voters vote for them and if Republicans went all out against Social Security and Medicare they wouldn't win minority votes, they wouldn't win youth votes, and they wouldn't win elderly votes.
    That's why Republicans and Democrats are afraid to touch entitlements.

    My main issue is that we are really talking about taxpayer money. Taxpayer money in a round about way, going to support Democrats. And when these public employees complain about having to pay 7% towards their pension and insurance, they are really saying that they want their neighbor to pay for their pension and insurance. They choose to work where they work. If they don't like the pay/benefits, go find another job. If I don't like what a company is paying me, I ask for a raise... if they don't give me a raise, I find another job that pays better.

  19. #19

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    I love this image....the signs are made by some students....notice the one on the left that says" I am the future...I NEEN quality teachers..."

    Yeah you NEEN it alright. LOL


  20. #20

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    You know what...since I left the union back in 2009 I see how f'ing greedy union workers can be.....This is a prime example.

    I pay for my own healthcare (pre-tax)....almost 1K a month for the family....and you dont hear me crying....

    Like someboday said earlier....if I want a raise...and they wont give me one...I can go elsewhere.....even in this crappy economy. The whole "me me me...I get what I want or pout"...attitude has to stop.

 

 

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