Newbold

[WillABro]

Hi. I am still working through potential neighborhoods for my move to Philly next spring/summer. Please tell me about Newbold for a family of three, with a 5 year old son. It seems like a decent place.

[Naveen]

You will definitely get some Newbold boosters on here, who will tell you how it's improved so much, and is only getting better. They are correct. But I still wouldn't move there with a family*.

Keep in mind, folks have a vested interest in getting functioning people into their neighborhood. They want you there to help gentrify the neighborhood, so they're going to downplay the negatives...but a move to Newbold means you're still a pioneer. Of course, the area is certainly not as bad as Point Breeze, and considering how rapidly Newbold is changing, it could be fine in two to three years, particularly the farther east you go. But as of now it's still transitional.

*If it was just you and the missus, I'd say go for it, especially if you're buying (and depending on which block...closer to Broad is better, farther away is worse, generally speaking). The area is on the upswing, and the area around the South Philly Taproom is particularly desirable. But also be aware Philly can change block to block. Seriously. You cross the street, and it's like another world. If you have specific blocks in mind, that would help immensely in evaluating what's safe.

[WillABro]

If you have specific blocks in mind, that would help immensely in evaluating what's safe.

First, thanks for the reply. I haven't drilled down to specific blocks just yet. I do see a lot of scumbag landlords/realtors advertising Point Breeze and calling it new bold. I mean way west of 18th street. Anywho, just learning the lay of the land. Thanks again.

[2happy4u]

newbold is about a 2 block by 2 block area, The center piece is a bar on mifflin st. 4 or 5 years ago it was called point breeze.

[WillABro]

newbold is about a 2 block by 2 block area, The center piece is a bar on mifflin st. 4 or 5 years ago it was called point breeze.

Well, obviously the boundaries run from Washington to Snyder and Broad to 18th. Surely there must be more to it than that.

[Naveen]

Well, obviously the boundaries run from Washington to Snyder and Broad to 18th. Surely there must be more to it than that.

Some background since you're probably unfamiliar:

The area now known as "Newbold" was only christened as such fairly recently. It was done to differentiate the neighborhood from Point Breeze. Although the area now called Newbold was not originally Point Breeze, over time during the post-WWII era, both neighborhoods declined, and the name "Point Breeze" became an easy reference for Newbold too. This was especially true for nightly news reporters, who had to report on all the crime in the area.

So, many people dispute what "Newbold" actually is, and you may get differing responses. And, again, it's very much a marketing tool that new businesses and realtors are using to make the area desirable. But that's ok...as long as it works!

One thing: I do believe that the city now officially recognizes the neighborhood as "Newbold". This is significant, because this means the neighborhood civic associations are separate, and in Philadelphia, the civic associations have a lot of sway in what happens in the neighborhood and definitely help shape it's character.

[WillABro]

Some background since you're probably unfamiliar:

The area now known as "Newbold" was only christened as such fairly recently.

I see. Thanks for the explanation. There is mass gentrification underway in Cincinnati's Over The Rhine (OTR) which was once a veritable war zone, and not long ago at that. 3CDC, the main developer, renamed a section of the neighborhood "The Gateway Corridor." However, I can say The Gateway Corridor is loaded with trendy bars, restaurants, and good luck finding a place to live there.

Go a half mile up Vine Street and it's still very ghetto. Recently a 15 year old girl was killed by a stray bullet. But the redevelopment and not the name makes the difference. It doesn't sound like Newbold has the sort effort underway as I describe in OTR. I am not really too hip on pioneering my family through an iffy area that may take another 5 to 10 years to get right. Correct me where I am wrong.

[mixiboi]

No, you are pretty much hitting it on the nose. By the time your son is 10, Newbold will be very similar to that...

[Giavella Water]

Hi. I am still working through potential neighborhoods for my move to Philly next spring/summer. Please tell me about Newbold for a family of three, with a 5 year old son. It seems like a decent place.

You shouldn't have a problem finding a good house for a good price in that area if you just do your homework...or legwork to be more precise. Don't just drive by the area, but walk around. Different times of the day also. For a really good view of the neighborhood, I'd roam around during the time people go or come home from work. If you see a lot of traffic near the street you've picked that means a vast majority of the residents are working people.

If you see a lot of healthy looking folks just hanging around then...

[Naveen]

You shouldn't have a problem finding a good house for a good price in that area if you just do your homework...or legwork to be more precise. Don't just drive by the area, but walk around. Different times of the day also. For a really good view of the neighborhood, I'd roam around during the time people go or come home from work. If you see a lot of traffic near the street you've picked that means a vast majority of the residents are working people.

If you see a lot of healthy looking folks just hanging around then...

I think WillABro is from far off, so it might be hard, but what Giavella says is right. If you can finagle the time and money, take a weekend trip here and walk the streets.

I lived in South Philly in the Passyunk Square neighborhood (great place), but when it was time to buy a house I looked everywhere, but with a particular focus on South Philly, including Newbold and Point Breeze. Walking the streets, even more than driving through, is eye opening. You get a much better sense of where you feel safe and where you don't. And course, this will be doubly-true when you think about how you'd feel with your wife and son with you.

Also, WillABro, the girl killed by the stray bullet that you mentioned...that would be my biggest concern in Point Breeze, or the part of Newbold close to it. I'd be less worried about muggings or even home invasions; my main worry would be getting caught in the middle of someone else's conflict.

[WillABro]

Thanks, Giavell Water, very helpful and much appreciated.

Here is the link to the shooting I mentioned for verification:

Arrest made in Africa Hope homicide | Cincinnati.com | cincinnati.com

I live less than a quarter mile from where the shooting happened, but in a totally different neighborhood. Cincinnati varies considerably from block to block and hood to hood.

When I come to Philly I plan on having areas mapped out with potential rentals in hand. I will be able to walk areas I am interested in but need to be conservative on what areas I keep on my potential list. So far, Garduate Hospital and Passyunk Square are at the top. Point being you guys are being immensely helpful to me and my family. Much appreciated.

[OffenseTaken]

Thanks, Giavell Water, very helpful and much appreciated.

Here is the link to the shooting I mentioned for verification:

Arrest made in Africa Hope homicide | Cincinnati.com | cincinnati.com

This is digressing a bit, but I thought everyone could use a nice steaming cup of rage:

Croft [the murderer] had been out of prison only two months, Craig said, after serving 10 years in state prison for manslaughter.[...] Croft originally was charged with aggravated murder but, Detective Colin Vaughn said, Croft pled guilty to a lesser charge of manslaughter because of difficulties getting prosecution witnesses to cooperate.

[WillABro]

This is digressing a bit, but I thought everyone could use a nice steaming cup of rage:

Cincinnati is rife with this sort of thing. Neighborhoods that are ensconced in the drug trade are notorious at not cooperating with police, and witnesses have extreme reason to fear for their lives should the cooperate with police. In order to get neighborhood cooperation the family of this young lady had to take to the streets and rally people together around solving the crime. In this case it worked, but it took the community coming together to make it happen. The crime happened around 11pm but the street where it occurred was loaded with people at the time of the incident.

[OffenseTaken]

This might be restating the obvious, but if you guys plan to be renting for a while once you get here, the payoff for living in that neighborhood would be almost zero.

When my girlfriend and I were apartment-hunting (out of the state as well), we noticed that the rents drop off at an exponential, rather than linear, rate as you move south from Rittenhouse. In other words, the difference in rent between Spruce or Pine (well-established, posh streets in Rittenhouse) and Bainbridge or Catherine (newly-established, mostly nice streets in Grad Hospital) is enormous: often a factor of three or four. Go down the same distance again to to Ellsworth or Federal, however, and the difference is maybe ten or twenty percent.

If you were looking at sales (or when you are looking at sales), maybe then we could talk about the benefits of urban pioneering. But as long as you're renting, you're not really reaping those benefits: you're making your kid dodge bullets so that you can save $200 a month. It ain't worth it.

[Giavella Water]

Thanks, Giavell Water, very helpful and much appreciated.

Here is the link to the shooting I mentioned for verification:

Arrest made in Africa Hope homicide | Cincinnati.com | cincinnati.com

I live less than a quarter mile from where the shooting happened, but in a totally different neighborhood. Cincinnati varies considerably from block to block and hood to hood.

When I come to Philly I plan on having areas mapped out with potential rentals in hand. I will be able to walk areas I am interested in but need to be conservative on what areas I keep on my potential list. So far, Garduate Hospital and Passyunk Square are at the top. Point being you guys are being immensely helpful to me and my family. Much appreciated.

Oh, one more thing. Since you are out of state which I didn't realize, use Google Maps to scan the rea via street level. I know what you see may be out of date, but if you see a lot of houses boarded up and empty lots, you can probably figure that that area my not be for you even if the area is now being upgraded.

Just a thought.

[WillABro]

Just a thought.

Well, a good thought at that. I am not into living in blighted areas, my wife even less. I have been doing a lot of work on google maps getting to know South Philly. It's helpful, to say the least.

[OffenseTaken]

Cincinnati is rife with this sort of thing. Neighborhoods that are ensconced in the drug trade are notorious at not cooperating with police, and witnesses have extreme reason to fear for their lives should the cooperate with police. In order to get neighborhood cooperation the family of this young lady had to take to the streets and rally people together around solving the crime. In this case it worked, but it took the community coming together to make it happen. The crime happened around 11pm but the street where it occurred was loaded with people at the time of the incident.

I have family ties to Louisville (a smaller, perhaps more redneck edition of the Nasty 'Nati), so I find myself in Cincinnati somewhat often. In terms of architecture and its natural setting, the city is really the rival of San Francisco or Montreal: it's really kind of awesome in those respects. But I also get the impression of a very provincial, anti-urban attitude among most of the locals. Be forewarned that you will see a little of that in Philadelphia as well. (Middle-class Philadelphians like to talk about how "walkable" Center City is, but then they drive around it in their SUV's and bitch about the lack of parking.)

One advantage that you'll recognize immediately here, and probably already have, is that there's a wealth of neighborhoods to choose from that are as nice as Mt. Adams. You would only need to look at Point Breeze if the pickings were slim, and they're not.

[mixiboi]

These two have been real helpful with me finding a new place to live:


City of Philadelphia: Map

Zillow - Real Estate, Homes for Sale, Recent Sales, Apartment Rentals


The first one gives you access to know what is renting out the places in the area and other fun stuff like who if fixing up what there...The second one tells you the prices of housing in the area plus when the houses were bought and for how much and if there are any foreclosures..

This is really helpful if you can physically go to these areas anytime soon...

[WillABro]

But I also get the impression of a very provincial, anti-urban attitude among most of the locals. Be forewarned that you will see a little of that in Philadelphia as well. (Middle-class Philadelphians like to talk about how "walkable" Center City is, but then they drive around it in their SUV's and bitch about the lack of parking.)

One advantage that you'll recognize immediately here, and probably already have, is that there's a wealth of neighborhoods to choose from that are as nice as Mt. Adams. You would only need to look at Point Breeze if the pickings were slim, and they're not.

The urban / suburban divide in Cincinnati is horrendous. I have never seen such a nasty divide. And I firmly believe the divide is along racial/ socioeconomic lines. Personally, I live in CUF and walk most places I go, including downtown. Otherwise, I take the bus. Cincinnati's progress has been stymied by a very hateful anti-urban influence from the likes of COAST, and others. I am in Cincinnati for very specific reasons that no longer hold sway. I had thoughts of moving back to Queens but have grown accustomed to having a little more room than a 600 sq. ft. railroad style apartment. Having a row home with a basement, in a decent walkable area, close to SEPTA is that I am after.

Thanks for the heads up. I am not surprised to hear a smattering of provincialism is even in a city the size of Philly. I am ok with that as long as the city itself has amenities, culture, and is large enough to over power anti-urban influences. All cities deal with their share of anti-urban.

[the mule]

It should be pointed out that while Newbold is further developed than Point Breeze mainly by virtue of encompassing a smaller area closer to Broad, the perception that it is far less prone to crime is a little misguided. There have been a few incidents recently around 15th-16th and Federal, which is solidly in the Newbold area, but when those events are reported they always get reported as Point Breeze. People who are going to commit a crime don't worry about crossing invisible neighborhood lines.

A few other examples in Newbold where it doesn't get the negative affiliation, though there are many more:
Man shot in Point Breeze, 2 arrested in connection with shooting

Man hospitalized in Point Breeze shooting

I'm a big booster for both Newbold and greater Point Breeze, but I always tell people, especially those with young children, that they should get a feel for Philly before diving in headfirst to the area. There is a ton of upside to a family owning a home in the neighborhood, but much less upside to one renting. As far as the cost of buying, there are certainly some great deals in the area, but when you start getting into the upper tier of properties over $200,000, to be perfectly honest there are plenty of other stabler, more developed, safer neighborhoods where you can pay the same price in South Philly.