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  1. #21
    mixiboi's Avatar
    mixiboi is offline Philly Remixed
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    Quote Originally Posted by BarryG View Post
    Why can't they just count linked trips as one "ride" for these purposes? I don't see how that opens the system to any more abuse.

    Its possible...The NPT makes a lot of stuff possible..Tech for the win!
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  2. #22
    Ho Chi Minh is online now Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by phillyTIM View Post
    Weekly/monthly passes are unlimited in other major cities such as Boston and New York (where unlimited monthly is $112 for a more extensive system, compared to Philadelphia's $92 limited system).
    First, monthly TransPass is $83.00. Not sure how you get that wrong if you're such a Septa Super Use.

    50 trips a week is a lot. I highly doubt there are many people who would fall into that catagory.

  3. #23
    eldondre is online now Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by mixiboi View Post
    Its possible...The NPT makes a lot of stuff possible..Tech for the win!
    of course as I've pointed out and septa has confirmed, tech hasn't been the problem, it's septa mgmt/board itself.
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  4. #24
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    You are absolutely right, Ho, CURRENT Monthly TransPasses are $83, JULY 2013 PROPOSED Monthly TransPasses will be $92 (as proposed currently by SEPTA). And then those same TransPasses are proposed to be ride-limited in 2014.

    50 rides per week is an easy limit to hit by a LOT of people (Students commuting from home to school, over to a job and back to school or home, that would be easily 6-10 charged trips a day). IF I were to go to a movie, I'd need a bus, subway, another bus to get to a movie, and then back home, that would be 6 charged trips. And that's not even with stopping for a bite to eat along the way. And that's not even counting work earlier in the day or week!

    If SEPTA's argument is that only ONE PERCENT of ridership goes over the 50/week, then why should SEPTA worry about putting limits on TransPasses at all???????


    Quote Originally Posted by Ho Chi Minh View Post
    First, monthly TransPass is $83.00. Not sure how you get that wrong if you're such a Septa Super Use.

    50 trips a week is a lot. I highly doubt there are many people who would fall into that catagory.

  5. #25
    raider.adam is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by slin03 View Post
    If SEPTA's argument is that only ONE PERCENT of ridership goes over the 50/week, then why should SEPTA worry about putting limits on TransPasses at all???????
    Because the concern isn't individuals using unlimited. Their concern is the amount of people that will abuse the new system by trying to share transpasses.

  6. #26
    eldondre is online now Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by raider.adam View Post
    Because the concern isn't individuals using unlimited. Their concern is the amount of people that will abuse the new system by trying to share transpasses.
    either way its bs . their argument makes no sense. if it affects less than 1% then its not a problem. abuse is subjective. since pass backs dont work it means what theyre really trying to prevent is, for example, my wife using it one day and me the next. is that really abuse? how many people buy monthly passes that don't need them daily such that they can share them? I suppose if one works a day and another words a night shift. the new system should allow them to see this kind of data immediately. perhaps instead of guessing it might be a problem they should wait and see if it is a problem. remember, this is an agency whose revenue covers less than half its expenses so a small percentage of revenue over a short period of time shouldn't kill the budget. in all likelihood im going to spend less on septa because ill no longer need a monthly pass.
    Last edited by eldondre; 04-16-2013 at 03:27 PM.
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  7. #27
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    So the question turns around to (1) how much does abuse happen in other cities, (2) how do other city transit organizations worry about (and fight) that abuse and (3) why wasn't a better abuse-busting measure built into the new SEPTA system?

    Again, all other cities obviously do not think putting caps on weekly/monthly passes would curb abuse or do anything productive.


    Quote Originally Posted by raider.adam View Post
    Because the concern isn't individuals using unlimited. Their concern is the amount of people that will abuse the new system by trying to share transpasses.
    Last edited by phillyTIM; 04-16-2013 at 02:50 PM.

  8. #28
    OldMama is online now Senior Member
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    I think we'd be surprised at how fast those trips add up under SEPTA's plan. Especially given that transfers each count as a separate trip, it's not that hard to exceed the limit. My kid did grad school at Penn while student teaching at Northeast High. Every weekday, he used a bus, the el, and a bus to get to Northeast, a bus and the El to get to Penn after school, and a bus to get home at night. That's 6 "trips"per day. On the weekend, he often had to return to Penn because he was a grad assistant in admissions and had to lead tours, participate in an open house, etc. He doesn't drive at all so he also used to pass to see his friends, shop, etc.

    Two jobs could have the same effect. Bad idea all around. Crack down on the abusers and leave the hard working people alone.

  9. #29
    raider.adam is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by eldondre View Post
    either way its bs . their argument makes no sense. if it affects less than 1% then its not a problem. abuse is subjective. since pass backs dont work it means what theyre really trying to prevent is, for example, my wife using it one day and me the next. is that really abuse? how many people buy monthly passes that don't need them daily such that they can share them? I suppose if one works a day and another words a night shift. the new system should allow them to see this kind of data immediately. perhaps instead of guessing it might be a problem they should wait and see if it is a problem. remember, this is an agency whose revenue covers less than half its expenses so a small percentage of revenue over a short period of time shouldn't kill the budget. in all likelihood im going to spend less on septa because ill no longer need a monthly pass.
    Quote Originally Posted by phillyTIM View Post
    So the question turns around to (1) how much does abuse happen in other cities, (2) how do other city transit organizations worry about (and fight) that abuse and (3) why wasn't a better abuse-busting measure built into the new SEPTA system?

    Again, all other cities obviously do not think putting caps on weekly/monthly passes would curb abuse or do anything productive.
    All I am pointing out is that the focus wasn't correct. People were making it seem like SEPTA was trying to crack down on individuals "over using" the system. That is obviously not the goal of the plan. It was a plan to deal with transpass sharing.

    I am not saying their plan is right or wrong, just saying people were focusing on the wrong reasoning.

  10. #30
    eldondre is online now Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by raider.adam View Post
    All I am pointing out is that the focus wasn't correct. People were making it seem like SEPTA was trying to crack down on individuals "over using" the system. That is obviously not the goal of the plan. It was a plan to deal with transpass sharing.

    I am not saying their plan is right or wrong, just saying people were focusing on the wrong reasoning.
    I didn't get that impression, the threads have clearly indicated that septa is using it as a replacement for M/F which is also used to prevent pass sharing. it seems that SEPTA is cracking down on individuals "over using" the system to achieve a different goal (eliminating pass sharing). people are probably also rightly concerned that 200 is just the starting point and that future revisions will whittle that number down. anyway,
    "It has shown me that everything is illuminated in the light of the past"
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  11. #31
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    Exclamation

    TODAY is SEPTA's Philadelphia Public Hearings:

    Philadelphia County | Wednesday, April 17, 2013
    SEPTA Board Room, 11 a.m. & 5 p.m.
    1234 Market Street, Philadelphia, PA 19107

  12. #32
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    Exclamation

    I did the math about fare passes/costs in major cities:

    CITY WEEKLY MONTHLY DURATION

    ATLANTA, MARTA $23.75 $95 UNLIMITED

    BOSTON, MBTA $18 $70 UNLIMITED

    CHICAGO, CTA $28 $100 UNLIMITED

    DALLAS, DART $25 $80 UNLIMITED

    LOS ANGELES, METRO $20 $75 UNLIMITED

    NEW YORK CITY, MTA $30 $112 UNLIMITED

    PHILADELPHIA, SEPTA $24.50* $92* LIMITED*

    PHOENIX, Valley Metro $20 $64 UNLIMITED

    SAN DIEGO, MTS N/A $72 UNLIMITED

    SAN FRANCISCO, MUNI/BART N/A $74 UNLIMITED

    *July/Proposed

    PHILADELPHIA/SEPTA is neither cheap nor highway-robbery *IF* it was UNLIMITED.
    Last edited by phillyTIM; 04-17-2013 at 09:24 AM.

  13. #33
    RittenhouseGirl is offline Senior Member
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    Don't Greyhound and Amtrak limit the rides allowed on their monthly passes?

    Maybe SEPTA got the idea from them.

  14. #34
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    You cannot compare those to SEPTA, they are national companies that have much more extensive service and are funded differently.

    Quote Originally Posted by RittenhouseGirl View Post
    Don't Greyhound and Amtrak limit the rides allowed on their monthly passes?

    Maybe SEPTA got the idea from them.
    Last edited by phillyTIM; 04-17-2013 at 09:08 AM.

  15. #35
    eldondre is online now Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by RittenhouseGirl View Post
    Don't Greyhound and Amtrak limit the rides allowed on their monthly passes?

    Maybe SEPTA got the idea from them.
    amtrak does not limit the number of rides a monthly can take. it does limit which trains the pass is valid on.
    "It has shown me that everything is illuminated in the light of the past"
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  16. #36
    RittenhouseGirl is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by eldondre View Post
    amtrak does not limit the number of rides a monthly can take. it does limit which trains the pass is valid on.
    Nevermind. I think I was thinking about a specific pass Amtrak has. I think it limits a rider to six or eight train rides for a specific price.

  17. #37
    slin03 is offline Junior Member
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    I can't make the meeting, but I plan on submitting a thorough letter to SEPTA about the ride limits and extension of journey.

    I haven't worked out my work schedule for the fall semester yet, but hopefully, it won't matter because SEPTA gets rid of the asinine ride limits

  18. #38
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    Exclamation

    I have submitted the following presentation/comments to SEPTA and public record:

    Greetings:

    This is in regards to the proposed TransPass ride limits of 50/week and 200/month now that the M/F designee stickers will no longer be used on TransPasses to curb pass sharing abuse.

    I have received a canned response from SEPTA that states the following:

    "Passes are for the use of the person whose signature is on the pass. Still, we realize that pass sharing does occur. With the elimination of the male and female designations on passes the frequency of pass sharing is anticipated to increase. With the introduction of new payment technology we will be able to determine the number of times a pass is used, so we are able to place a limit on the number of rides rather than increase the cost of the pass even higher than the proposed increase.

    Our records show that the ride limit will affect less than one percent of pass holders. If you are among those who will occasionally exceed the pass limit, you will be able store additional funds on your smart media to cover the payment required for rides in excess of the limit on those weeks or months when you exceed the limit rather than pay a higher overall fee for the pass every week or month." - SEPTA

    My comments/questions to be taken into consideration are as follows:

    (1) How could SEPTA implement such a far-reaching proposed TransPass ride limitation policy based upon nothing more than a notion that pass sharing abuse is "anticipated" to increase, rather than have justifiable evidence that pass sharing abuse WILL increase without the proposed ride limits?

    (2) Since the proposed SEPTA TransPass ride limits are obviously targeting that "less than one percent" of ridership, which apparently is the ridership that SEPTA “anticipates” to abuse pass sharing, my question to SEPTA is why implement such negative ride limitations at all on the over-99 percent of TransPass users who are deemed to be compliant?

    (3) What evidence does SEPTA have, from either studies or other comparable, major cities, that the proposed SEPTA TransPass ride limits WILL curtail pass sharing abuse?

    (4) If SEPTA TransPass ride limits are not implemented, SEPTA then states that it would "increase the cost of the TransPass even higher than the proposed increase". Being that over 99 percent of TransPass users are 'compliant' ridership, why would SEPTA need an “even higher” TransPass fee increase on the over-99 percent of compliant ridership to curtail the pass sharing abuse if only "under one percent" of ridership are “anticipated” to exhibit pass sharing abuse?

    (5) By what SEPTA study of other comparable, major cities has shown that comparable ride limits on comparable weekly and monthly transit passes has successfully helped to curtail or eliminate pass sharing abuse?

    (6) By what SEPTA study has been done to examine and determine how other comparable, major cities fight transit pass sharing abuse with any varying degrees of success on their TransPass-type offerings?

    (7) Weekly and monthly unlimited TransPass-type transportation instruments serve a purpose for tourism and short-term stationed workers from afar. What consideration has SEPTA given to these groups of people who wish to get around a lot of the City the in short amounts of time they are visiting? All other transit authorities in comparable, major cities offer unlimited TransPass-type transportation instruments to visitors, as these visitors should expect to be available.

    (8) Here is an extensive sample of what transit authorities in other comparable, major cities offer residents and visitors. Note that all of which are UNLIMITED weekly/monthly TransPass-type instruments:

    CITY/AUTHORITY WEEKLY MONTHLY DURATION

    ATLANTA/MARTA $23.75 $95 UNLIMITED

    BOSTON/MBTA $18 $70 UNLIMITED

    CHICAGO/CTA $28 $100 UNLIMITED

    DALLAS/DART $25 $80 UNLIMITED

    LOS ANGELES/METRO $20 $75 UNLIMITED

    NEW YORK CITY/MTA $30 $112 UNLIMITED

    PHILADELPHIA/SEPTA $24.50* $92* LIMITED*

    PHOENIX/Valley Metro $20 $64 UNLIMITED

    SAN DIEGO/MTS N/A $72 UNLIMITED

    SAN FRANCISCO/MUNI/BART N/A $74 UNLIMITED

    *July-2013/Proposed by SEPTA

    (9) All other transportation authorities in comparable, major cities do not limit their ridership frequency on their weekly/monthly TransPass-type instruments. By attempting to limit ridership in its weekly/monthly TransPasses, SEPTA has become a unique authority that infers a view of distrust in not just the anticipated-abusive “under one percent” of the citizens and visitors of the Philadelphia region, but now enforces a view of distrust in ALL of the citizens and visitors of the Philadelphia region.
    Last edited by phillyTIM; 04-17-2013 at 05:03 PM.

  19. #39
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    It's time, also, for each of us to write all of our local, state and federal representatives. I've sent a compiled, significant letter to all of mine. This is a very important step that each and every one of you should take, who have concerns about this or any issue. SEPTA gets significant funding from many different sources.

  20. #40
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    Let me say again: we have heard directly from John McGee that the proposed pass limits (which DVARP opposes) are intended to deter illegal sharing of passes. They were not a response to the elimination of gender stickers.

    The recent case of the women who left a child unattended at an El station so one could hand a pass back to another illustrates the problem. The problem is particularly acute around city high schools at dismissal time. Also, I know New York has had similar problems: see the stories of people selling Metrocard swipes for $2.00 cash.

    If you are submitting testimony by e-mail or writing to elected officials, please share a copy with us at mail@dvarp.org.

    Matt Mitchell
    President
    Delaware Valley Association of Rail Passengers

 

 

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