SEPTA vs the Frankenstorm: System-wide disruptions thread

**eldondre** · 10-30-2012, 05:35 PM

looks like ALL regional rail service will be back on line, so will Amtrak's keystone service as well as service to/from newark

On Wednesday, October 31, Amtrak plans on operating modified Northeast Regional service from Newark, N.J., to points south, Keystone, Shuttle and Downeaster service to operate

I wouldn't expect a normal commute but things should be working again. I've been impressed with the response of SEPTA and Amtrak so far. they actually seem to be improving over time.

**mixiboi** · 10-30-2012, 09:05 PM

Yeah, sadly NYC MTA and NJTransit didn't get it so well...see the NJTransit tread

**eldondre** · 10-30-2012, 09:46 PM

Originally Posted by mixiboi

Yeah, sadly NYC MTA and NJTransit didn't get it so well...see the NJTransit tread

geography. It was your typical big storm here.

**mixiboi** · 10-30-2012, 09:54 PM

Originally Posted by eldondre

geography. It was your typical big storm here.

That and just bad luck..one tree here hits in the right place and the entire RR could been out for weeks...

NJTransit trains are out because the control center got soaked in water....

**eldondre** · 10-30-2012, 10:00 PM

Originally Posted by mixiboi

That and just bad luck..one tree here hits in the right place and the entire RR could been out for weeks...

NJTransit trains are out because the control center got soaked in water....

not really. The winds werent particularly hard nor the rain that much. many trees were down. Its a lot more than bad luck. We don't live on the coast so the storm surge had less of an impact. Where is njs control center? 1234 market was pretty safe from water. The worst poet outage I can remember in CC was a burst water main flooding. A substation on a sunny day.

**johnnie** · 10-30-2012, 10:54 PM

Originally Posted by eldondre

not really. The winds werent particularly hard nor the rain that much. many trees were down. Its a lot more than bad luck. We don't live on the coast so the storm surge had less of an impact. Where is njs control center? 1234 market was pretty safe from water. The worst poet outage I can remember in CC was a burst water main flooding. A substation on a sunny day.

A poet outage! We need to awaken walt whitman

flooding is a possibilty with out storm surge though I suppose the schuylkill an delaware could surge as well. Suppose the bsl pumps go out and we are getting 2inches of rain an hour. That tunnel could flood quickly since it needs to be pumped anyway since it is below the water line. Just a thought.

**mixiboi** · 10-30-2012, 11:08 PM

Originally Posted by eldondre

not really. The winds werent particularly hard nor the rain that much. many trees were down. Its a lot more than bad luck. We don't live on the coast so the storm surge had less of an impact. Where is njs control center? .

Kearny NJ, which is right next to Newark NJ right where the trains enter the tunnels to go to NYC...

**johnnie** · 10-30-2012, 11:12 PM

You have to be devote of murphys law when it comes to mother nature. Also when septa shuts down say during some flooding posaible line outages septa operators conductors etc still need to get home. U need to think of them as well. Ya odds here are slim to nil but still murphys law again.

**Jayfar** · 10-31-2012, 07:36 AM

Originally Posted by eldondre

Where is njs control center?

Originally Posted by mixiboi

Kearny NJ, which is right next to Newark NJ right where the trains enter the tunnels to go to NYC...

New Jersey Transit

Rail Service:

Rail service will remain suspended until further notice. There is currently no estimated time for resumption of service.
Rail customers are advised to seek alternate transportation because of significant storm damage.
Crews continue to inspect the rail infrastructure to get a full assessment of damage:
NJ TRANSIT’s Rail Operations Center—the central nervous system of the railroad—is engulfed in water, which has damaged backup power supply systems, the emergency generator, and the computer system that controls the movement of trains and power supply
There are numerous downed trees across the rail system, which have caused damage to overhead wires and signal wires.
There are rail washouts across the system, including on the North Jersey Coast Line and Atlantic City Rail Line
Several rail stations are flooded, including Hoboken Terminal.
Morgan Drawbridge on the North Jersey Coast Line in South Amboy sustained damage from boats and a trailer that collided into the bridge.

**eldondre** · 10-31-2012, 08:04 AM

Originally Posted by mixiboi

Kearny NJ, which is right next to Newark NJ right where the trains enter the tunnels to go to NYC...

that certainly makes sense (in terms of flooding) and reinforces that it wasn't about luck and more about geography. kearney appears to be close to the water. it should be clear that decisions of where to locate this stuff do matter (high ground). unfortunately, the decisions are often made for political reasons today (have no idea if that is the case here but it IS NJ).

johnnie-that's not what we're talking about but supposing you're right that still doesn't mean limited service couldn't have been run monday morning. it simply falls the hardest on those without their own cars if they have to travel. (or those trying to get out). they shut it off earlier than necessary to force people to stay home (right, wrong, or indifferent).

thanks jayfar

**mixiboi** · 10-31-2012, 09:23 AM

Originally Posted by eldondre

that certainly makes sense (in terms of flooding) and reinforces that it wasn't about luck and more about geography. kearney appears to be close to the water. it should be clear that decisions of where to locate this stuff do matter (high ground). unfortunately, the decisions are often made for political reasons today (have no idea if that is the case here but it IS NJ).

After googleing where it was I am really dumbfounded why they picked MARSHLAND to put a control center..its just stupid.....

**BarryG** · 10-31-2012, 09:42 AM

Originally Posted by eldondre

that certainly makes sense (in terms of flooding) and reinforces that it wasn't about luck and more about geography. kearney appears to be close to the water. it should be clear that decisions of where to locate this stuff do matter (high ground). unfortunately, the decisions are often made for political reasons today (have no idea if that is the case here but it IS NJ).

johnnie-that's not what we're talking about but supposing you're right that still doesn't mean limited service couldn't have been run monday morning. it simply falls the hardest on those without their own cars if they have to travel. (or those trying to get out). they shut it off earlier than necessary to force people to stay home (right, wrong, or indifferent).

thanks jayfar

I think you're being a little harsh on SEPTA. In hindsight it is clear that service could have continued until the afternoon or so. But it was not at all obvious that the rains and wind would be less than forecasted at the time.

Politicians do seem to be overly cautious these days but the reasons are mostly good. The overwhelming motive is keeping people safe at home and off the streets, which really does make things a lot easier*all around, for everybody. Morning service that had to be terminated in the afternoon would have stranded many people, who would have put themselves in danger trying to get home, creating more work for emergency responders. Additionally, SEPTA wanted to protect their equipment, and needed time to get trains and buses to a safe place.

I don't think making everybody stay home on Monday was a bad thing.

**maddoxdy** · 10-31-2012, 09:46 AM

Originally Posted by eldondre

johnnie-that's not what we're talking about but supposing you're right that still doesn't mean limited service couldn't have been run monday morning. it simply falls the hardest on those without their own cars if they have to travel. (or those trying to get out). they shut it off earlier than necessary to force people to stay home (right, wrong, or indifferent).

thanks jayfar

I imagine that one of the thoughts about suspending service before the AM rush is to keep people home. If there had been service in the morning, then SEPTA would have stayed operating to get people home. There would have been complaing that service wasn't continued until 12:30 am TUESDAY.

Doug Maddox

**johnnie** · 10-31-2012, 09:52 AM

I hear septa is going to perform an in depth investigation to get to the bottom of why the system was shut down earlier then necessary for a day out of the year. Heads are gonna roll over this! Finally we will get to the bottom of this outrage. Is that what people want to hear?

**eldondre** · 10-31-2012, 12:53 PM

Originally Posted by BarryG

I think you're being a little harsh on SEPTA. In hindsight it is clear that service could have continued until the afternoon or so. But it was not at all obvious that the rains and wind would be less than forecasted at the time. Politicians do seem to be overly cautious these days but the reasons are mostly good. The overwhelming motive is keeping people safe at home and off the streets, which really does make things a lot easier*all around, for everybody. Morning service that had to be terminated in the afternoon would have stranded many people, who would have put themselves in danger trying to get home, creating more work for emergency responders. Additionally, SEPTA wanted to protect their equipment, and needed time to get trains and buses to a safe place.

I don't think making everybody stay home on Monday was a bad thing.

I don't know that I'm being harsh on SEPTA. I largely credit them for working hard to restore service. It really depends on how you view transit, as a means to force people at home, or an essential service, or somewhere in between. I fall in the latter category which puts me at odds with the likes of Nutter and Johnnie. the forecasts were pretty much on the money.

Originally Posted by mixiboi

After googleing where it was I am really dumbfounded why they picked MARSHLAND to put a control center..its just stupid.....

yeah, I thought maybe it was the cynic in me that thought it was a silly place.

Originally Posted by maddoxdy

I imagine that one of the thoughts about suspending service before the AM rush is to keep people home. If there had been service in the morning, then SEPTA would have stayed operating to get people home. There would have been complaing that service wasn't continued until 12:30 am TUESDAY.

Doug Maddox

I doubt anyone would complain that there wasn't service DURING the storm.
johnnie-now you're just being silly.

**johnnie** · 10-31-2012, 01:00 PM

If you knew it wasn't going to be severe at all here, why did you ask me what to do with your roof deck furniture? Youre playing Monday morning Qb now.

Youre even whining on and on over at philly.com in the comments.

Philadelphia-area transit officials defend shutdowns for Sandy

By the way the forecast was for landfall at 2am on Tuesday. It hit land at around 6pm Monday. Hardly a spot on forecast.

Also you may have missed the stranded travelers on Monday morning at 1230 am who missed the Septa stoppage on the news. I am sure there would have been the likes of those Monday if service was stopped midday.

**eldondre** · 10-31-2012, 04:30 PM

Originally Posted by johnnie

If you knew it wasn't going to be severe at all here, why did you ask me what to do with your roof deck furniture? Youre playing Monday morning Qb now.

Youre even whining on and on over at philly.com in the comments.

By the way the forecast was for landfall at 2am on Tuesday. It hit land at around 6pm Monday. Hardly a spot on forecast.

Also you may have missed the stranded travelers on Monday morning at 1230 am who missed the Septa stoppage on the news. I am sure there would have been the likes of those Monday if service was stopped midday.

I left it on the roof so there's that. what are you stalking me now? I'm not sure why you're getting nasty and resorting to personal insults. forecast I saw was for monday evening. either way, it wasn't a big deal. they already came out and said it was to discourage people from being out and about. I clearly stated why I think service should have extended into monday morning. I understand why SEPTA did what they did, likely at the urging of the city, but you have a car. 40% of the city does not and for them it may be more than a minor inconvenience. nothing you've provided so far indicates that it was unsafe to be out monday morning.

The cancellation of all transit service late Sunday left millions of commuters and travelers stuck at home Monday - and that was the idea

the utilities put people up in hotel rooms to help out in the aftermath. I also think that Amtrak should have restored service on the Pittsburgh-Philadelphia portion of the Pennsylvanian today or at least tomorrow.

**johnnie** · 10-31-2012, 05:39 PM

Originally Posted by eldondre

I left it on the roof so there's that. what are you stalking me now? I'm not sure why you're getting nasty and resorting to personal insults. forecast I saw was for monday evening. either way, it wasn't a big deal. they already came out and said it was to discourage people from being out and about. I clearly stated why I think service should have extended into monday morning. I understand why SEPTA did what they did, likely at the urging of the city, but you have a car. 40% of the city does not and for them it may be more than a minor inconvenience. nothing you've provided so far indicates that it was unsafe to be out monday morning.

the utilities put people up in hotel rooms to help out in the aftermath. I also think that Amtrak should have restored service on the Pittsburgh-Philadelphia portion of the Pennsylvanian today or at least tomorrow.

Stalking? Wow. I just said it was a silly thing to be whining about everywhere all things considered. Im not being nasty or insulting at all Im just trying to understand why such a small inconvenience is such a big deal when many things about the forecast were unknown. There was plenty of time prior to Monday to get prepared so there was no reason anyone should have been out Monday anyway. Having a car has nothing to do with anything. I didnt touch mine from Friday until today.

**mixiboi** · 10-31-2012, 05:39 PM

More on why NJTransit built its stuff on Marshland:

New Jersey Transit

Completion of a new rail operations center at the Meadows Maintenance Complex in Kearny -- where all NJ TRANSIT trains will be dispatched once it’s completed this winter(2003).

**BarryG** · 10-31-2012, 05:59 PM

Originally Posted by johnnie

Stalking? Wow. I just said it was a silly thing to be whining about everywhere all things considered. Im not being nasty or insulting at all Im just trying to understand why such a small inconvenience is such a big deal when many things about the forecast were unknown. There was plenty of time prior to Monday to get prepared so there was no reason anyone should have been out Monday anyway. Having a car has nothing to do with anything. I didnt touch mine from Friday until today.

I don't have a car, prepped on Sunday and stayed home all day Monday.