Underground River to River rapid transit and Next to arrive Bus signs top Planning meeting...

[Voodoo]

From a railfan site:

"My first job outside of highschool was a security guard at the Phila Museum of Art. I did that job about 6 months before actually working for the museum for 2 years. As a secuirty officer(rent a cop whatever you want to call it LOL)I had to do tours of the entire property. Underneath the Museum is a huge roughed out cavern that was suppose to be a subway station(I believe it was suppose to run to Roxborough). Just the station area is roughed out of the earth. No ibeams etc, but leading to the platforms, there are signs pointing from the subway station to the route 43 streetcar. If you walk around the property on the outside, you will see steel grates that say something like subway grates(or subway emergency exits)in the metal work.I left the PMA in 99 so my recollection is alil hazy, but there certainly is,in roughed out form a subway station that was never finished, for a line that was suppose torun to Roxborough. In fact that area directly above this unfinished station, there is a beautiful vaulted area that was being used for art storage and will be converted to art galleries soon was suppose to be the grand entrance into this subway station."

If "railfan" posts on the internet does it become become fact? There certainly is a "huge roughed out cavern." The museum was built atop a "huge roughed out" reservoir. It has nothing to do with transit and everything to do with construction and storage. Do you really think a museum would dedicate so much space to a subway station? Including a 500 foot long MASSIVE stone arched hallway as a "grand entrance to a subway?" I sometimes enjoy the imaginations of "railfans" but you have to separate the wheat from the chaff.

Never trust a "railfan site" Especially if it's on the internet.

[thoth]

Well if you want to get practical, I still don't understand why taking a subway to a bus, or taking two subways to a bus, or taking a bus to a subway to a bus, is so much better than taking a bus.

Neither one is going to replace the Phlash, since whatever goes into the City Branch tunnel is going to dump everyone out at (or under) the same random street corner in the middle of nowhere. At least rail would have the natural advantages of rail over buses.



Where the ROW ends, so does the "RT" in BRT.

The only part that would even theoretically be "rapid" is the measly 1 3/4–mile stretch that would run in the City Branch tunnel. And how "rapid" is that, really? It takes up to 15 minutes to wait for the BSL at City Hall. Then you have to ride it one or two stops, then walk to Broad and Noble, then catch your underground bus.

It takes 12 minutes for the 38 bus to get from City Hall to 34th and Mantua. So much for rapidity.



Scarcity of funding doesn't seem like a good reason for this. That it costs x dollars to complete project B isn't necessarily the best course of action, just because it costs 3x dollars to complete (much more desirable) project A.

Maybe the best course of action is not to bother, and allocate those funds toward uses that actually make a difference.

_

What I'm not understanding about your stance on this is why making it rail would fix any of the things you're talking about, except for the short dog leg to the park.

How is this the middle of nowhere, you just said this area was underserved by transit? You just said it would be "rapid" for almost two miles, which seems like a useful thing for area that is already served by ground transit with no right of way.

Your time analysis seems deliberately lazy. So the BSL takes 15 minutes (the longest amount of time possible) to show up, but no one ever waits for the 38? Bus never hits traffic? As I said from the get go, this project only works in my mind with direct integration to the BSL. Assuming the money is spent to tie the City branch directly into a BSL station, it would be an easy transfer. BSL to SG or Race is ~2-3minutes with max peak time wait of 5 min? You could widen the existing rail trench that parallels Penna Ave and give dedicated ROW from Broad to the Girard, which would clearly result in a quicker ride, especially when philly buses routinely stop every block.

[raider.adam]

What I'm not understanding about your stance on this is why making it rail would fix any of the things you're talking about, except for the short dog leg to the park.

How is this the middle of nowhere, you just said this area was underserved by transit? You just said it would be "rapid" for almost two miles, which seems like a useful thing for area that is already served by ground transit with no right of way.

Your time analysis seems deliberately lazy. So the BSL takes 15 minutes (the longest amount of time possible) to show up, but no one ever waits for the 38? Bus never hits traffic? As I said from the get go, this project only works in my mind with direct integration to the BSL. Assuming the money is spent to tie the City branch directly into a BSL station, it would be an easy transfer. BSL to SG or Race is ~2-3minutes with max peak time wait of 5 min? You could widen the existing rail trench that parallels Penna Ave and give dedicated ROW from Broad to the Girard, which would clearly result in a quicker ride, especially when philly buses routinely stop every block.

I just thought of another possible advantage. With it in the dedicated trench, I assume it would give the area a reliable transit option for when the neighborhood is overrun during events in the area like 4th of July where a lot of buses get rerouted or have a tough time making it through the neighborhoods. Would I be right in assuming this?

[MarketStEl]

Our group was gung-ho about fixing City Hall/15th Station, and that took up a huge chuck of the budget. ($120M/$165M in play money) We eventually set aside our leftover budget for the planning/environmental studies for the City Branch.

I wasn't able to get my group to go along with funding the City Branch BRT. We too funded City Hall - the problem with this is that there is still the mandate to make this key interchange station fully accessible, which means that it's going to have to be funded sooner or later.

Was anyone here at Thursday's session, and what happened there? Was there a full-court press by VIADUCTgreene there too?

Are the underground park people serious?

I keep trying to ignore it but they won't shut up... There is no way the actually think that's a good idea

I'm sure some of you saw my assessment of Paul Van Meter's argument for a park in that trench that hammersklavier countered on Hidden City. It seems clear to me that the argument for the City Branch section of the "viaduct park" is not carrying the day in policymaking circles, hence the flooding of meetings.

Someone asked about the merits of BRT vs. rail and the difference between BRT and a busway.

First off, BRT and busways are like rectangles and squares - you can operate BRT on surface streets with modifications, while a busway is a dedicated BRT facility. What the Planning Commission would like to see in the City Branch cut is a busway - a dedicated bus-only transitway with stations.

eldondre's point about running regular surface bus routes via the busway actually make sense, for it takes advantage of the faster average running speeds the dedicated facility can offer. Ottawa's Transitway, the North American poster child for this flavor of bus rapid transit, operates in this fashion: there are both trunk routes that operate only on the busway and local routes that run ordinary surface service once beyond it.

BRT is also a steppingstone to higher-capacity rapid transit as demand and funding warrant. Ottawa and Curitiba are both building rail systems now - Ottawa to ease downtown congestion on the surface streets the busway routes use, Curitiba to increase the carrying capacity of its surface-street-based BRT system.

As I pointed out to my group, rapid transit to the northwest from downtown remains another of the great unfilled gaps in the rapid transit network first proposed in 1913, and a busway in the City Branch would take a big step towards that goal.

The engineering for a direct connection to the Broad Street Subway, which passes beneath the City Branch cut where it crosses Broad just north of Callowhill, would be quite difficult.

The story about a subway station under the Art Museum is apocryphal and, unlike the parallel tale of a subway station beneath Roosevelt Boulevard where the former Sears catalog warehouse stood, false AFAIK.

[MarketStEl]

I just thought of another possible advantage. With it in the dedicated trench, I assume it would give the area a reliable transit option for when the neighborhood is overrun during events in the area like 4th of July where a lot of buses get rerouted or have a tough time making it through the neighborhoods. Would I be right in assuming this?

That is one of the key arguments Planning Commission staff make in favor of the City Branch busway.

[eldondre]

If "railfan" posts on the internet does it become become fact? There certainly is a "huge roughed out cavern." The museum was built atop a "huge roughed out" reservoir. It has nothing to do with transit and everything to do with construction and storage. Do you really think a museum would dedicate so much space to a subway station? Including a 500 foot long MASSIVE stone arched hallway as a "grand entrance to a subway?" I sometimes enjoy the imaginations of "railfans" but you have to separate the wheat from the chaff.

Never trust a "railfan site" Especially if it's on the internet.

I think it has little to do with railfans imaginations. the claim ran in an inquirer article about the renovations at the museum. I suppose it's an easy claim to believe since the museum was built around the same time as the subway was being built, I doubt anyone foresaw either the Depression, the long slow decline that would follow, not the country altering policies that would be implemented during and after it.

[2happy4u]

don't the EL run from river to river already? 2nd and Market to 30th & Market.

[OffenseTaken]

Your time analysis seems deliberately lazy. So the BSL takes 15 minutes (the longest amount of time possible) to show up, but no one ever waits for the 38? Bus never hits traffic?

I left out the time it would take to wait for a bus at a hypothetical Broad and Noble station, because that wouldn't have been a fair comparison. Wait time for the BSL should by all means be included, since it's a whole leg of the trip that isn't otherwise taken.

But fine, let's say there's no wait time for a Fern Rock–bound train at City Hall. It would still be enormously difficult for the BRT to make up for the time you would lose just to get to it, to say nothing of the hassle of an added connection.

As I said from the get go, this project only works in my mind with direct integration to the BSL. Assuming the money is spent to tie the City branch directly into a BSL station, it would be an easy transfer. BSL to SG or Race is ~2-3minutes with max peak time wait of 5 min? You could widen the existing rail trench that parallels Penna Ave and give dedicated ROW from Broad to the Girard, which would clearly result in a quicker ride, especially when philly buses routinely stop every block.

I thought the selling point for BRT was that it was cheap!

What I'm not understanding about your stance on this is why making it rail would fix any of the things you're talking about, except for the short dog leg to the park.

How is this the middle of nowhere, you just said this area was underserved by transit? You just said it would be "rapid" for almost two miles, which seems like a useful thing for area that is already served by ground transit with no right of way.

Sorry: by "middle of nowhere" I meant Broad and Noble.

I'm a little confused about my stance as well, since the BRT idea hasn't been laid out in much detail, and the rail idea hasn't in any detail. If putting rail in the tunnel were part of some more extensive project, and not just a dinky 1.5-mile local, it might have advantages that outweigh the tunnel's rather awkward position toward its western end.

Otherwise it just seems like we're treating these two needs—of a transit connection to the northwest, and of making use of this tunnel that's just sitting there—as much more compatible than they actually are.

_

[concourse]

From Broad and Noble to Pennsylvania Trench and Poplar is under 2 miles. And it's in a trench which is good for speed but harder to get into. I am curious how they're going to get enough people to ride it but I'd be inclined to trust the Planning Commission's projections. And maybe they're relying on a connection from Broad and Noble to Center City. I was really happy to see this as part of the plan even though my group barely funded it. I will be interested to see where the idea goes.

[eldondre]

From Broad and Noble to Pennsylvania Trench and Poplar is under 2 miles. And it's in a trench which is good for speed but harder to get into. I am curious how they're going to get enough people to ride it but I'd be inclined to trust the Planning Commission's projections. And maybe they're relying on a connection from Broad and Noble to Center City. I was really happy to see this as part of the plan even though my group barely funded it. I will be interested to see where the idea goes.

no transfer is necessary if it goes directly to center city.

[Voodoo]

I think it has little to do with railfans imaginations. the claim ran in an inquirer article about the renovations at the museum. I suppose it's an easy claim to believe since the museum was built around the same time as the subway was being built, I doubt anyone foresaw either the Depression, the long slow decline that would follow, not the country altering policies that would be implemented during and after it.

Little to do with "railfans" imaginations? The post I quoted was rife with imagination. The RAILROAD.NET thread where it originated is typical fandom augmented with the usual array of old maps and photos. RAILROAD.NET &bull; View topic - Abandoned Art Museum line (<-- Why are links still red?)

Anyone of reasonable intelligence can poke a hundred holes in the "ghost station" theory in about ten seconds. A little common sense will take a person a long way. They just have to open their mind to common sense.

Never trust a "railfan site" Especially if it's on the internet.

[thoth]

Little to do with "railfans" imaginations? The post I quoted was rife with imagination. The RAILROAD.NET thread where it originated is typical fandom augmented with the usual array of old maps and photos. RAILROAD.NET • View topic - Abandoned Art Museum line (<-- Why are links still red?)

Anyone of reasonable intelligence can poke a hundred holes in the "ghost station" theory in about ten seconds. A little common sense will take a person a long way. They just have to open their mind to common sense.

Never trust a "railfan site" Especially if it's on the internet.

Well poke holes in it then, instead of inferring that everyone else is dumb.

"Art Museum subway station: Subway plans were the rage 75 years ago. One proposal that never materialized was a line running under the new Benjamin Franklin Parkway. A station was built just outside the Art Museum near the Spring Garden Street Bridge.

The station still exists but is sealed. One longtime museum employee remembers photographing the dark, gloomy site but can't find the photos."

Inquirer article from 1995: More City Secret Spots Unearthed Most Are Old, One Is New - Philly.com

[thoth]

"The museum also hopes to expand the museum library and archives and create a new study-storage space in the basement tunnel to make stored objects available for view by the public. The tunnel runs the length of the museum and was originally designed as a subway stop that was never built."

Inquirer Article from 1987: Art Museum Fund Drive Reaches $28.9 Million - Page 2 - Philly.com

[hammersklavier]

BTW part of what makes the Greenies such insidious pests is that van Meter is clearly recruiting from communities with no knowledge or bestowed ignorance (à la Gensler) of how mass transit actually works. The Greenie who tried--and for the most part failed (as Andy Sharpe will vouch for)--to push her agenda was an architecture student with a clear anti-bus bias.

Generally I do not like BRT proposals because they are usually highly politicized (i.e. BRT comes as a "cheaper"...not really...counterproposal to some light/heavy/commuter rail project), but in this case the O-Bahn*-type modifications I suggested to the Commission's original "cultural corridor" proposal are pretty optimal for the short/medium term at doing what needs to be done. The key is that the routes are able to serve employment destinations throughout the east side of Center City (as the 7, 33, and 48 do a good job servicing those on the west side) reasonably. To that end, I proposed branches along Broad and what I called Market-ish at the time, which I feel has better finesse as Chestnut/Walnut E of Broad**.
__________
* That's what they call BRT in Australia, where it normally has an S-Bahn form and center city diggings, but is done with...buses.
** For those not at the meetings, the initial plan had an Arch/Race running E of Broad, which everybody at my table (rightly) pointed out is kinda far from any useful destination.

[MarketStEl]

I'm a railfan, traingeek and especially juice fiend (trolley jolly) of the first water, and I'm dubious about this claim that the tunnel adjacent to the Art Museum was intended as a rapid transit subway station, if what little I know about the general area is accurate.

If the station is "near the Spring Garden Bridge," it's on the wrong side of the museum to be included in what was to have been a Parkway-29th Street-Ridge Avenue-Roxborough subway-elevated line.

If the excavation had "signs directing [people] to the Rt. 43 streetcar," then it's not only on the wrong side, it was probably intended for that line if it actually exists. We do know about the former trolley tunnel, now auto tunnel, beneath Eakins Oval, which dates to about the same time as both the ex-B&O, now CSX, tunnel under the oval was built (1921; it parallels the Pennsylvania Avenue tunnel north of the oval and is still in use) and work began on the Art Museum itself (1925-29, atop the former Fairmount Reservoir). A possible underground station to make transfer from the Rt. 43 to the Art Museum easy, I'm willing to believe even though these stories are the only evidence I have of this plan. The other reason I'm dubious about this is: There's photographic evidence for just about every other unfinished or abandoned transportation facility in the city, including the tunnel under Arch Street built for the canceled loop subway and the Boulevard subway station at Sears. I have yet to see a picture of this alleged station, and none of those on that railroad.net thread describe it either.

[MarketStEl]

Generally I do not like BRT proposals because they are usually highly politicized (i.e. BRT comes as a "cheaper"...not really...counterproposal to some light/heavy/commuter rail project), but in this case the O-Bahn*-type modifications I suggested to the Commission's original "cultural corridor" proposal are pretty optimal for the short/medium term at doing what needs to be done. The key is that the routes are able to serve employment destinations throughout the east side of Center City (as the 7, 33, and 48 do a good job servicing those on the west side) reasonably. To that end, I proposed branches along Broad and what I called Market-ish at the time, which I feel has better finesse as Chestnut/Walnut E of Broad**.
__________
* That's what they call BRT in Australia, where it normally has an S-Bahn form and center city diggings, but is done with...buses.
** For those not at the meetings, the initial plan had an Arch/Race running E of Broad, which everybody at my table (rightly) pointed out is kinda far from any useful destination.

Note: the O-Bahn is called that because the technology - which is akin to RoadRailers because the buses run on a guideway with rails - was developed by a German firm. Literally, this is an "omnibus (O) railway (bahn)". Why did you recommend this for the BRT? I presume because of the potentially higher throughput afforded by faster operating speeds in the dedicated guideway?

BTW, as far as access to the trench is concerned, buses could enter and exit it easily via ramps. One survives intact but obstructed at its eastern end, where it reaches grade just west of the bridges that carry the City Branch and Noble Street over 13th Street. Some structures - including part of the SDP headquarters (former new Inquirer/Daily News pressroom) - would have to be removed or modified to allow the busway to pass through. I believe the ROW continues unobstructed (save for underbrush) from the western tunnel portal at 29th and Pennsylvania Avenue up to somewhere near 33d and Girard; surely some sort of ramps could be constructed to access nearby surface streets. That would leave only the issue of Broad Street Line transfer for the busway. (A rail line in this trench would be difficult to connect to the BSS, since the ROW passes just S of the end of the platforms at Spring Garden, leaving little or no room for track ramps from the north. Track ramps from the south would be possible but extremely costly to install.)

[thoth]

I'm a railfan, traingeek and especially juice fiend (trolley jolly) of the first water, and I'm dubious about this claim that the tunnel adjacent to the Art Museum was intended as a rapid transit subway station, if what little I know about the general area is accurate.

If the station is "near the Spring Garden Bridge," it's on the wrong side of the museum to be included in what was to have been a Parkway-29th Street-Ridge Avenue-Roxborough subway-elevated line.

If the excavation had "signs directing [people] to the Rt. 43 streetcar," then it's not only on the wrong side, it was probably intended for that line if it actually exists. We do know about the former trolley tunnel, now auto tunnel, beneath Eakins Oval, which dates to about the same time as both the ex-B&O, now CSX, tunnel under the oval was built (1921; it parallels the Pennsylvania Avenue tunnel north of the oval and is still in use) and work began on the Art Museum itself (1925-29, atop the former Fairmount Reservoir). A possible underground station to make transfer from the Rt. 43 to the Art Museum easy, I'm willing to believe even though these stories are the only evidence I have of this plan. The other reason I'm dubious about this is: There's photographic evidence for just about every other unfinished or abandoned transportation facility in the city, including the tunnel under Arch Street built for the canceled loop subway and the Boulevard subway station at Sears. I have yet to see a picture of this alleged station, and none of those on that railroad.net thread describe it either.

You've actually seen Sears station pics? post please.

[eldondre]

Little to do with "railfans" imaginations? The post I quoted was rife with imagination. The RAILROAD.NET thread where it originated is typical fandom augmented with the usual array of old maps and photos. RAILROAD.NET • View topic - Abandoned Art Museum line (<-- Why are links still red?)

Anyone of reasonable intelligence can poke a hundred holes in the "ghost station" theory in about ten seconds. A little common sense will take a person a long way. They just have to open their mind to common sense.

Never trust a "railfan site" Especially if it's on the internet.

railroad.net has some pretty good information actually. Whenever I have an obscure question Google usually directs me to that site.of course its now been proven its mkt just a railfan rumor...true or not

[hammersklavier]

I didn't know about the proprietary technology, Sandy; Human Transit's Jarrett Walker usually just uses the term for a high-grade bus network arranged in an S-Bahn-like manner, and hence my recommendation was not any specialist technology but rather to think of the cut as a network core for a broad swath of Northwest and West Philadelphia.

[seanl]

Crossing the Lines: Pursuing BRT in the City Branch

This ensures that a bus passes along the Branch every 7.5-10 minutes, frequent enough to say one will be along shortly.

This would be great.