Underground River to River rapid transit and Next to arrive Bus signs top Planning meeting...

[BarryG]

all transfers should be free but I agree that if the city wants to encourage use of the line to get to the museum, this one should be free. of course, transfers used to be free. I'd personally have the routes (I'd use it for the 32,38,48) head south to city hall via 15th and 16th connecting there. the busway would run from 15th to 29th with it connecting to the street grid at 29th. the 48 would run N/S on 29th, the 32 would resume it's normal routing, the 38 would be the stand in for the cultural corridor, heading west past the zoo with stops in the centennial district.

Most transit agencies treat BRT as extensions of their rapid transit systems, with different rolling stock and fare payment systems than the regular buses. Running these routes through the cut makes sense but not sure how to jive that with "true" BRT.

[OffenseTaken]

The tracks run under noble street, which is less than one block from the SG station. If you could build a short ped tunnel (or, if you wanna get real fun money, pie in the sky, tunnel BRT line right up to the SG platforms) and incorporate free transfer, I don't think this would be underutilized. Boston has a very similar setup that is not cumbersome to use.

But honestly, if money is no object, you could do the same thing with light rail. Difference is you'd pay A LOT more to extend a LR rail out of the tunnel and up to, say, the zoo.

Or we could have a bus that stays at grade level the whole time, and avoids that mess. Sure, it might get stuck at red lights, but it could also go right into Center City, rather than some random street corner where the Reading Company happened to lay tracks back in the 1800's. Hell, it could take people not just right to the PMA, but the Barnes, the penitentiary, Please Touch, even the Mann Center. The convenience would more than make up for the time lost in traffic. Just imagine!

I mean, seriously: I know it's irksome that the tunnel is just lying there unused, but there seems to be this idea that we should assign any role we can to it, no matter how redundant, just so we can satisfy ourselves that we're using it.

[eldondre]

Most transit agencies treat BRT as extensions of their rapid transit systems, with different rolling stock and fare payment systems than the regular buses. Running these routes through the cut makes sense but not sure how to jive that with "true" BRT.

the most important thing is that it be cost effective and to be that, they have to forget about wasteful policies like separate buses and fare payment systems. by going with a dedicated right of way for the other buses there would be $0 in rolling stock acquisition, only the sstations and right of way. the benefits wouldn't be limited to the 4k riders a day on the cultural corridor route but exponentially more riders. call it rapid bus or subway surface bus or whatever.

[kidphilly]

The tracks run under noble street, which is less than one block from the SG station. If you could build a short ped tunnel (or, if you wanna get real fun money, pie in the sky, tunnel BRT line right up to the SG platforms) and incorporate free transfer, I don't think this would be underutilized. Boston has a very similar setup that is not cumbersome to use.

But honestly, if money is no object, you could do the same thing with light rail. Difference is you'd pay A LOT more to extend a LR rail out of the tunnel and up to, say, the zoo.

or this could rise out of the trench and be a bus stop (maybe the sugar house trolleys could stop here as well, bam free transfer for river to river solved) in Provence in the new elevated village with a glass escalator and people mover back down and to the BSL station

[thoth]

Or we could have a bus that stays at grade level the whole time, and avoids that mess. Sure, it might get stuck at red lights, but it could also go right into Center City, rather than some random street corner where the Reading Company happened to lay tracks back in the 1800's. Hell, it could take people not just right to the PMA, but the Barnes, the penitentiary, Please Touch, even the Mann Center. The convenience would more than make up for the time lost in traffic. Just imagine!

I mean, seriously: I know it's irksome that the tunnel is just lying there unused, but there seems to be this idea that we should assign any role we can to it, no matter how redundant, just so we can satisfy ourselves that we're using it.

I hardly think having an direct transit link from the BSL to the Art Museum/Zoo/Fairmount/West Girard would be redundant. This is why there is a ghost subway entrance at the Art Museum, the zoo is trying to get SEPTA to install a platform, and Fairmount/Btown residents bitch about the trolley. Look, the 15 gets stuck at red lights and has a surface connection with the BSL, but virtually no tourists, and many residents do not take advantage of it precisely because it gets stuck at red lights and only has a surface connection with the BSL. Saying that the phlash or the existing SEPTA routes is an acceptable alternative...I don't know, seems like people are complaining because those routes don't cut it.

[BarryG]

I hardly think having an direct transit link from the BSL to the Art Museum/Zoo/Fairmount/West Girard would be redundant. This is why there is a ghost subway entrance at the Art Museum, the zoo is trying to get SEPTA to install a platform, and Fairmount/Btown residents bitch about the trolley. Look, the 15 gets stuck at red lights and has a surface connection with the BSL, but virtually no tourists, and many residents do not take advantage of it precisely because it gets stuck at red lights and only has a surface connection with the BSL. Saying that the phlash or the existing SEPTA routes is an acceptable alternative...I don't know, seems like people are complaining because those routes don't cut it.

I think the BRT is a good idea but the Phlash is underused by locals. They accept Transpasses and it's very convenient, albeit uncomfortable.

[Voodoo]

This is why there is a ghost subway entrance at the Art Museum,

I know it's close to Halloween, but there is no "ghost subway entrance" at the Art Museum.

[thoth]

I think the BRT is a good idea but the Phlash is underused by locals. They accept Transpasses and it's very convenient, albeit uncomfortable.

That's what I'm saying, sort of. I'm not suggesting that BRT is best case scenario here, but it is a cheaper option for the tunnel than light rail or a new subway line. Also, as pointed out, it could run above ground after exiting the tunnel, and easily reach the zoo/btown, plz touch museum.

[thoth]

I know it's close to Halloween, but there is no "ghost subway entrance" at the Art Museum.

From a railfan site:

"My first job outside of highschool was a security guard at the Phila Museum of Art. I did that job about 6 months before actually working for the museum for 2 years. As a secuirty officer(rent a cop whatever you want to call it LOL)I had to do tours of the entire property. Underneath the Museum is a huge roughed out cavern that was suppose to be a subway station(I believe it was suppose to run to Roxborough). Just the station area is roughed out of the earth. No ibeams etc, but leading to the platforms, there are signs pointing from the subway station to the route 43 streetcar. If you walk around the property on the outside, you will see steel grates that say something like subway grates(or subway emergency exits)in the metal work.I left the PMA in 99 so my recollection is alil hazy, but there certainly is,in roughed out form a subway station that was never finished, for a line that was suppose torun to Roxborough. In fact that area directly above this unfinished station, there is a beautiful vaulted area that was being used for art storage and will be converted to art galleries soon was suppose to be the grand entrance into this subway station."

[OffenseTaken]

I hardly think having an direct transit link from the BSL to the Art Museum/Zoo/Fairmount/West Girard would be redundant. This is why there is a ghost subway entrance at the Art Museum, the zoo is trying to get SEPTA to install a platform, and Fairmount/Btown residents bitch about the trolley. Look, the 15 gets stuck at red lights and has a surface connection with the BSL, but virtually no tourists, and many residents do not take advantage of it precisely because it gets stuck at red lights and only has a surface connection with the BSL. Saying that the phlash or the existing SEPTA routes is an acceptable alternative...I don't know, seems like people are complaining because those routes don't cut it.

Good gosh yes, we need transit in that direction. It's just that buses would be such a poor approximation of the rail that's really needed there, and such a trivial improvement over the bus service we already have, that the considerable money it would cost to retrofit the City Branch is better spent on more urgent needs. Of which there's no short list.

[thoth]

Good gosh yes, we need transit in that direction. It's just that buses would be such a poor approximation of the rail that's really needed there, and such a trivial improvement over the bus service we already have, that the considerable money it would cost to retrofit the City Branch is better spent on more urgent needs. Of which there's no short list.

What would be the practical difference between a BRT system with dedicated ROW and rail on this route?

[seanl]

What would be the practical difference between a BRT system with dedicated ROW and rail on this route?

A BRT line could more easily be extended past where the ROW ends, like to the zoo on one end, or the delaware river on the other.

[raider.adam]

A BRT line could more easily be extended past where the ROW ends, like to the zoo on one end, or the delaware river on the other.

With funding, it would seem to make absolute sense to make it a BRT route and not rail.

[hammersklavier]

The ViaductGreenies have been trying to pack the vote, but have definitely been getting pushback from us transit activists at every turn. The Planning Commission has been listening, and what I can judge is that they are cognizant of the vote-packing effort, and that transit activists are counterpunching hard and wearing them back.

Oh, and apparently van Meter thinks he "won" that Hidden City debate with me. Only in his head, man, only in his head.

[hammersklavier]

Because the Edit time is excessively short:

On to more substantive affairs: I noted that the BRT core--the cut, that is--is better-suited to a branching network. I insisted on the 32, and suggested the 27 (because that avoids Vine St. congestion). With this type of branching network, you can also run routes down Market-ish and Broad, allowing broad access to Center City's bus core. I also suggested extending the "Cultural Corridor" route to St. Joe's to tap the student and commuting populations there. With this one modification, potential ridership would grow by an order of magnitude. I also suggested that both the options on the table were relatively marginal uses for an untold sum of embodied work, and that in the long term, linking it up to rail mass transit on the 33rd St. corridor and opening a broad swath of Strawberry Mansion up to TOD redevelopment potential would be the highest and best use of the infrastructure. I also got a chance to suggest splitting the 7 and 48 so that one uses 25th and the other 29th in order to unknot Fairmount and even out the coverage in Brewerytown/Sharswood and Strawberry Mansion.

(That is, as you know, an element of my large-scale metro plan.)

[eldondre]

With funding, it would seem to make absolute sense to make it a BRT route and not rail.

I'd take it one further and just make it a busway (not BRT as BarryG pointed out). this reduces upfront costs even more.

hammer-as adam implied, it seems bizarre to suggest that transit belongs above ground and parks below ground yet that's what van meter and his minions are suggesting.

[raider.adam]

I'd take it one further and just make it a busway (not BRT as BarryG pointed out). this reduces upfront costs even more.

hammer-as adam implied, it seems bizarre to suggest that transit belongs above ground and parks below ground yet that's what van meter and his minions are suggesting.

What is the difference between BRT and busway? I guess I am just saying "rapid bus", whether the ROW is above ground or underground seems the better way to go for this rather than talking about laying track.

[OffenseTaken]

What would be the practical difference between a BRT system with dedicated ROW and rail on this route?

Well if you want to get practical, I still don't understand why taking a subway to a bus, or taking two subways to a bus, or taking a bus to a subway to a bus, is so much better than taking a bus.

Neither one is going to replace the Phlash, since whatever goes into the City Branch tunnel is going to dump everyone out at (or under) the same random street corner in the middle of nowhere. At least rail would have the natural advantages of rail over buses.

A BRT line could more easily be extended past where the ROW ends, like to the zoo on one end, or the delaware river on the other.

Where the ROW ends, so does the "RT" in BRT.

The only part that would even theoretically be "rapid" is the measly 1 3/4–mile stretch that would run in the City Branch tunnel. And how "rapid" is that, really? It takes up to 15 minutes to wait for the BSL at City Hall. Then you have to ride it one or two stops, then walk to Broad and Noble, then catch your underground bus.

It takes 12 minutes for the 38 bus to get from City Hall to 34th and Mantua. So much for rapidity.

With funding, it would seem to make absolute sense to make it a BRT route and not rail.

Scarcity of funding doesn't seem like a good reason for this. That it costs x dollars to complete project B isn't necessarily the best course of action, just because it costs 3x dollars to complete (much more desirable) project A.

Maybe the best course of action is not to bother, and allocate those funds toward uses that actually make a difference.

_

[raider.adam]

Scarcity of funding doesn't seem like a good reason for this. That it costs x dollars to complete project B isn't necessarily the best course of action, just because it costs 3x dollars to complete (much more desirable) project A.
_

Unless of course project with cost 3x just means nothing is done and it turns into a park for morlocks.

[thoth]

With funding, it would seem to make absolute sense to make it a BRT route and not rail.

This is what I'm saying. OT is saying that the project would not be utile unless it was built rail. I think the difference would be negligible from a user standpoint, given that the line is relatively short.