Philly public transportation impression from a international citzen perspective

[Blaz]

Hello guys.

I'm very happy to arrive at this forum, where a lot of people are discussing interesting subjects regarding Philadelphia, where I'm a resident since January, 2012.

I will start with a briefly introduction about myself. I'm from Brazil and I'm a study abroad student. Since the scholarship that I got there was responsible for my allocation here at USA, I was not able to choose where to go, so I arrived here to study at Temple University knowing almost nothing about the city.

Coming from a emerging country (or "third world" if you prefer), it is natural to expect that all the public services here would be better than what I'm usually to see on my home country. Overall, it is obvious that the organization, cleanness, efficiency and security impressions here exceeds what we have there. But I must say that, after taking my first step inside Broad Street Line on my second day here, I was negatively impressed with what I experienced.

I never imagined that I important and big city like here would have a subway so poorly maintained and "scary" as here. The violence level at Philly is probably lower than any big city in Brazil, but I felt very uncomfortable ridding SEPTA subway on the first weeks or months here (and I still feel it sometimes). I don't understand why the city is not investing on modernizing it and make public transportation more attractable to the majority of the population. In the biggest cities of Brazil (Sao Paulo and Rio de Janeiro) we have subway lines that are constantly renovated and used not only by students or lower-class families, but for a large amount of workers that sees public transportation as a faster and more economic alternative way to move around the city.

I really would like to spend more time here, but unfortunately I need to go back to Brazil by the end of this semester, leaving a lot of good impressions of my stay here. Unfortunately, not about the subway lines (that I need to use almost daily).

[thoth]

In emerging countries, and also mega-cities like Sao Paulo, people in general are more reliant on public transport to get around. In Philadelphia, it's mostly used by people who have no other choice (the poorest citizens) or people who have made a deliberate decision to structure their life around the absence of a car, of which there are only so many. As such, our system is reliant on public subsidy from the state of Pennsylvania and the federal government, both of which are agencies whose decisions are shaped by the mostly auto-dependent general population. So they don't get sufficient funding and infrastructure decays.

There are also lots of other complicated factors that effect transit funding like disability compliance and union labor costs, but that's the gist of it.

I recall that Buenos Aires had privately operated bus lines because that form of transportation was still profitable. I think that would not be the case here. Their subways (which were fairly old) sucked though, so there's also the element of aging infrastructure to throw in there.

Hello guys.

I'm very happy to arrive at this forum, where a lot of people are discussing interesting subjects regarding Philadelphia, where I'm a resident since January, 2012.

I will start with a briefly introduction about myself. I'm from Brazil and I'm a study abroad student. Since the scholarship that I got there was responsible for my allocation here at USA, I was not able to choose where to go, so I arrived here to study at Temple University knowing almost nothing about the city.

Coming from a emerging country (or "third world" if you prefer), it is natural to expect that all the public services here would be better than what I'm usually to see on my home country. Overall, it is obvious that the organization, cleanness, efficiency and security impressions here exceeds what we have there. But I must say that, after taking my first step inside Broad Street Line on my second day here, I was negatively impressed with what I experienced.

I never imagined that I important and big city like here would have a subway so poorly maintained and "scary" as here. The violence level at Philly is probably lower than any big city in Brazil, but I felt very uncomfortable ridding SEPTA subway on the first weeks or months here (and I still feel it sometimes). I don't understand why the city is not investing on modernizing it and make public transportation more attractable to the majority of the population. In the biggest cities of Brazil (Sao Paulo and Rio de Janeiro) we have subway lines that are constantly renovated and used not only by students or lower-class families, but for a large amount of workers that sees public transportation as a faster and more economic alternative way to move around the city.

I really would like to spend more time here, but unfortunately I need to go back to Brazil by the end of this semester, leaving a lot of good impressions of my stay here. Unfortunately, not about the subway lines (that I need to use almost daily).

[Blaz]

In emerging countries, and also mega-cities like Sao Paulo, people in general are more reliant on public transport to get around. In Philadelphia, it's mostly used by people who have no other choice (the poorest citizens) or people who have made a deliberate decision to structure their life around the absence of a car, of which there are only so many. As such, our system is reliant on public subsidy from the state of Pennsylvania and the federal government, both of which are agencies whose decisions are shaped by the mostly auto-dependent general population. So they don't get sufficient funding and infrastructure decays.

There are also lots of other complicated factors that effect transit funding like disability compliance and union labor costs, but that's the gist of it.

I recall that Buenos Aires had privately operated bus lines because that form of transportation was still profitable. I think that would not be the case here. Their subways (which were fairly old) sucked though, so there's also the element of aging infrastructure to throw in there.

Thank you for replying. Interesting your point of view, but I was able to travel to some other cities here in US like Los Angeles and Miami and, even if the situation that you described would apply there (please, correct if I'm wrong), I was able to experience a much better public transportation (modern, more integrated and secure). Why can't Philly follow these examples?

PS: Just complementing, recently I observed some signs inside Broad Street Line and MFL connection mentioning SEPTA renovations, what is very good! But I found curious calling it "SEPTA's Early Action Phase". Early Action, really?

[Hospitalitygirl]

Thank you for replying. Interesting your point of view, but I was able to travel to some other cities here in US like Los Angeles and Miami and, even if the situation that you described would apply there (please, correct if I'm wrong), I was able to experience a much better public transportation (modern, more integrated and secure). Why can't Philly follow these examples?

Philadelphia's is a much older system. It would take more capital than Septa or even the City of Philadelphia has to "modernize". You'll find as you get around more, that the system is not as bad you might think--you can get nearly anywhere on it, and it is integrated, although as I type this I realize I'm not quite certain what you mean when you say "integrated". If you mean how you can use connectors such as buses to the subway, or connect through a free interchange from the Broad St Line (commonly referred to as the subway) to the Market/Frankford Line, otherwise known as the "El" (short for elevated, since much of the line is). Or even the commuter rail line and how that can take you to farther reaching areas. If you mean something else, well the people change from area to area.

But back to "modernization"--it's really freaking expensive to completely overhaul everything at once.

Also, have your wits about you. That means, pay attention and don't zone out while plugged into an electronic device of some sort. And just be aware that high school dismissals from the north end of the Broad Street Line can pose challenges thanks to an overload of testosterone and false bravado. Avoid dismissal times until you're more sure of yourself.

[seand]

Thank you for replying. Interesting your point of view, but I was able to travel to some other cities here in US like Los Angeles and Miami and, even if the situation that you described would apply there (please, correct if I'm wrong), I was able to experience a much better public transportation (modern, more integrated and secure). Why can't Philly follow these examples?

PS: Just complementing, recently I observed some signs inside Broad Street Line and MFL connection mentioning SEPTA renovations, what is very good! But I found curious calling it "SEPTA's Early Action Phase". Early Action, really?

I don't think Philly's transit is that dramatically more "insecure" than say transit in LA but its really old and has never been updated. There are lots of weird little passageways connecting different legs that are badly marked and involve walking through spooky pedestrian tunnels. And most of the lines were built for taking people to the types of jobs they had 75 years ago and seem oddly placed today.

[thoth]

Thank you for replying. Interesting your point of view, but I was able to travel to some other cities here in US like Los Angeles and Miami and, even if the situation that you described would apply there (please, correct if I'm wrong), I was able to experience a much better public transportation (modern, more integrated and secure). Why can't Philly follow these examples?

PS: Just complementing, recently I observed some signs inside Broad Street Line and MFL connection mentioning SEPTA renovations, what is very good! But I found curious calling it "SEPTA's Early Action Phase". Early Action, really?

You're talking about two cities that built most of their transit infrastructure (in the case of Miami, virtually all) very recently. The Broad St line is around a century old, and yes, it looks it, although they have been updating certain stations to some degree.

While I would certainly agree that LA and Miami have more modern and maybe more secure public transit, I would argue that their systems are nowhere near as integrated or effective as SEPTA. As I mentioned, our network was mostly built during a time when it was actually profitable to operate public transit. As a result, our network is much larger and more comprehensive than LA or Miami, but also much older and expensive to maintain. The result you see is from decades of deferred maintenance the agency inherited from its bankrupt predecessors. It has had to cut service and spend money to upgrade routes, and as I mentioned, there is only so much cash to go around.

[Volanova]

I've always been curious what SEPTA would look like to someone visiting internationally. I'd imagine that the entire system would be somewhat baffling.

I'm curious, where did you go to on the BSL? The southern parts of the system (basically, Spring Garden and down) are not as bad. It's not pretty by any means in many places, but it's no worse than much of, say, New York. But it's not nearly as nice as the Washington Metro, which is one of the best maintained systems in the country. And the Market-Frankford Line tends to be a little nicer, as the cars are much newer and the stations have all been renovated fairly recently.

But, why is it so scary? Well, I'd say it has to do with two things:

1) SEPTA does not seem to adequately staff stations, and stations that are staffed often do not have cameras that the person staffing the station can see, or the staff booth is not in a place that can keep an eye on activity.
2) The people that ride SEPTA often just don't care about the condition they leave it in. There's no reason for trains to be full of garbage and, in some cases, human waste. But then again, when large swaths of the city are in conditions that most people in the Western world would refuse to live in, would you expect that the people living there would have a modicum of respect for public property? It only takes a few miscreants to make a public transit system dirty and dangerous.

[OffenseTaken]

Thank you for replying. Interesting your point of view, but I was able to travel to some other cities here in US like Los Angeles and Miami and, even if the situation that you described would apply there (please, correct if I'm wrong), I was able to experience a much better public transportation (modern, more integrated and secure). Why can't Philly follow these examples?

PS: Just complementing, recently I observed some signs inside Broad Street Line and MFL connection mentioning SEPTA renovations, what is very good! But I found curious calling it "SEPTA's Early Action Phase". Early Action, really?

Careful! Philadelphians tend to bitch interminably about how horrible SEPTA's trains are, but they get maniacally defensive when someone comes along and compares them unfavorably to Boston's or Chicago's.

Trust me when I say that you do not want to spend the rest of your precious time here trying to understand this ridiculously complicated subject.

[thoth]

Careful! Philadelphians tend to bitch interminably about how horrible SEPTA's trains are, but they get maniacally defensive when someone comes along and compares them unfavorably to Boston's or Chicago's.

...which this poster has not done. I don't think it's fair to compare any of the older east coast network's infrastructure to Miami's couple miles of shiny new light rail.

[Volanova]

And just be aware that high school dismissals from the north end of the Broad Street Line can pose challenges thanks to an overload of testosterone and false bravado. Avoid dismissal times until you're more sure of yourself.

This is the sort of thing that irks me about this city, even though I'm guilty of it myself. We accept that we should avoid avoid it at a certain hour of the day because a bunch of children (using the term 'child' very lightly) aren't ever taught to control themselves. We shouldn't be accepting this. We should be demanding better of our society and our neighbors.

[OffenseTaken]

...which this poster has not done. I don't think it's fair to compare any of the older east coast network's infrastructure to Miami's couple miles of shiny new light rail.

True, I just find this double standard (which Philadelphians by no means have a monopoly on) amusing.

It's also not quite fair to compare the Broad Street Line to other rapid-transit lines even within Philadelphia. I don't think OP would have the same impression if he was taking the PATCO (which is a beautiful system, even if the cars are old), regional rail, or even the El, which may have sketchy people on it, but the cars are new and the stations are mostly in fine shape.

The BSL is decrepit and sad any way you cut it, but I've been on decrepit and sad subway lines in Europe, too, and I find it hard to believe there aren't any in Brazil.

[Blaz]

I've always been curious what SEPTA would look like to someone visiting internationally. I'd imagine that the entire system would be somewhat baffling.

I'm curious, where did you go to on the BSL? The southern parts of the system (basically, Spring Garden and down) are not as bad. It's not pretty by any means in many places, but it's no worse than much of, say, New York. But it's not nearly as nice as the Washington Metro, which is one of the best maintained systems in the country. And the Market-Frankford Line tends to be a little nicer, as the cars are much newer and the stations have all been renovated fairly recently.

But, why is it so scary? Well, I'd say it has to do with two things:

1) SEPTA does not seem to adequately staff stations, and stations that are staffed often do not have cameras that the person staffing the station can see, or the staff booth is not in a place that can keep an eye on activity.
2) The people that ride SEPTA often just don't care about the condition they leave it in. There's no reason for trains to be full of garbage and, in some cases, human waste. But then again, when large swaths of the city are in conditions that most people in the Western world would refuse to live in, would you expect that the people living there would have a modicum of respect for public property? It only takes a few miscreants to make a public transit system dirty and dangerous.

I usually take BSL to go from Cecil B Moore (Temple Univ) to City Hall Station. I agree that MFL is looks better and "newer" than BSL.

I think that what makes it scary are three major points:

1. Lack of maintenance/renovation: City Hall is a good example. I understand that is a VERY old line and that is hard/expensive to maintain it, but that station is horrible. Looks like they don't renovate it for decades. And the concourse that gives access there is worst. I don't want to sound arrogant, but looks like an abandoned nuclear shelter.

2. Dirty/Trash: I understand that the users are the most responsible for that, but is very common to see people smoking and littering inside the station.

3. Security: My impression is that Philly has a very large, active and efficient police (at least around Temple campus), but I rarely see any patrol inside the stations. This would help people feel safer and, of course, avoid tragedies like the two teens that were shot this weekend inside a train around here.

[eldondre]

The city has had the money over the years and has.neglected to invest in transit and basic.maintenance which ends up in overly expensive capital projects that never get done. Thisos no longer the country that built first class cities but one in decline, unable to maintain its infrastructure. If you can take one thing back with you its what runaway government spendongton the wrong things can do yo a country

[scosm]

Ola, Blaz!

I spent a month in Brasil last year and loved your country - music, sport, culture and most of all the people. I also had the opportunity to ride the buses and subways in Rio and Sao Paulo and I've ridden in public transportation in several other Latin American countries and across Europe. The subways in Rio and SP were really top notch, some of the best I've ever been in, better than many in Europe. Part of that is being a newer system funded by vast public subsidies from the country's abundant resources. So keep that in mind as you judge SEPTA (and also appreciate what you have in Brasil). Also, note that it is much harder to build public transport in established countries for various reasons (wages, safety legislation, acquiring real estate).

Of course the Philadelphia subway has its issues and some of the stations are pretty gross. Philly went through some really rough times recently and in many ways is still just coming out of them. The Broad Street Line in particular is the worst face of SEPTA -- other parts of SEPTA are much better: the buses, trains and trolleys. And SEPTA is a more extensive system than all but a handful of US cities (Boston, NYC, Chicago and maybe a few others). Even the Market-Frankford Line is nicer than the BSL and recently refurbished. As others have said, some of the reasons that the BSL is bad is: 1. in the USA, there is resistance to funding public transport improvements compared to many other countries (sadly), 2. the BSL has traditionally served a poor demographic so it has been underfunded and is susceptible to crime, 3. it is an underused line which adds to a feeling of insecurity. I think in the decades to come it will get better, but it will take awhile as there is not much money to go around.

Just out of curiousity, have you ridden the NYC subway? I lived there for many years and while there is certainly a feeling that it is safer (partly because there are more people and because NYC has less street crime) and many of the stations are nice, there is a decrepitness about it unlike SP and Rio (especially outside of the Manhattan). Getting around on the weekend and late at night can be very inconvenient with the constant tunnel maintenance closings. Not to mention the rats. This is not to put it down, but just to show something else to compare it too.

Ate logo!

[OldMama]

Blaz,

I think your criticisms are spot on. The facilities are very dirty and that is the fault of people who have no respect for others and a culture that condones littering. I don't know how we can change that; throwing money at the littering problem is unlikely to help. Your other two complaints, also very valid, are directly related to lack of funds which are in short supply right now. I also feel that our stations are very dark compared to newer systems, although the Rome and Paris subways are equally dark, London less so. In Europe, though, riders tend to be from all socio-economic groups while here, the numbers are skewed toward poorer people especially at off peak times.

I hope you enjoy the remainder of your stay here.

[billy ross]

Our Brazilian should ride the Patco to Haddonfield or Collingswood to see a system that caters at least partially to middle class Americans. It is a more modern system, comparable to Miami's - the cars for both were made at the same plant here in Philly. Patco is better funded and managed than Septa's. Septa actually provides employee parking at busy transportation nodes; clearly Septa's management views it's product as something for those without choices, and this attitude shows in how the system is run.

[BarryG]

I still don't understand people who say SEPTA is dirty. They seem to be cleaning the stations all the time these days. Sometimes the BSL or El cars have some trash or worse, there's not much they do can do about that, but the cars are fine more often than not. Yes some of the stations are old and dingy, this is especially true of City Hall which is am embarrassment, but they aren't dirty. The buses are usually very clean as well in my experience, the new ones are nice and bright too.

[thoth]

I was thinking about this too, and was particularly confused with this critique coming up for the BSL. I'm pretty sure when people say it's dirty, they're really fixating on City Hall station, which has not been upgraded because of the ludicrous cost to make it ADA compliant. That station is more old and falling apart rather than trash ridden. Every other station I've been to on the BSL has been about as clean as I would expect a subway stop to be, with the possible exception of Fairmount, which is also more structural problem.

I still don't understand people who say SEPTA is dirty. They seem to be cleaning the stations all the time these days. Sometimes the BSL or El cars have some trash or worse, there's not much they do can do about that, but the cars are fine more often than not. Yes some of the stations are old and dingy, this is especially true of City Hall which is am embarrassment, but they aren't dirty. The buses are usually very clean as well in my experience, the new ones are nice and bright too.

[thoth]

Also just some statistics, since I started researching this:

Rio de Janeiro, Brazil (pop. 6mil, metro 12mil
Metrô Rio (Rio De Janeiro)
Founded: 1979
Miles of Track: 29
Daily Ridership: 600,000

São Paulo, Brazil (pop. 11.3mil, metro 19mil)
Metropolitano de São Paulo
Founded: 1968
Miles of Track: 46.2
Daily Ridership: 4mil

Philadelphia, USA (pop. 1.5mil, metro 5.9mil)
SEPTA rapid transit
Founded: 1907
Miles of Track: 38.3 (including Norristown High Speed Line, excluding Subway Surface)
Daily Ridership: 324,500
Annual Budget: $1.2bil (~66% subsidy)

[eldondre]

I still don't understand people who say SEPTA is dirty. They seem to be cleaning the stations all the time these days. Sometimes the BSL or El cars have some trash or worse, there's not much they do can do about that, but the cars are fine more often than not. Yes some of the stations are old and dingy, this is especially true of City Hall which is am embarrassment, but they aren't dirty. The buses are usually very clean as well in my experience, the new ones are nice and bright too.

it's much, much better than it was under faye moore. to be fair, city owned concourses are often disgusting and I think that people often fail to distinguish between the city and septa. still, if I used fairmount station daily (and I did) I might come away with the correct impression the system is woefully undermaintained and often feels unsafe. it's better than it was but where it needs to be. the reason more people don't use it is because there isn't enough of a police presence and it's undercapitalized. rather than maintain stations the city opted to defer maintenance until the projects became huge (it doesn't take $40 million to make a station ADA compliant but SEPTA budgeted that amount because a) it's inefficient and b) the station was woefully undermaintained over the decades.