DVARP Public Workshop on SEPTA's Silverliner Vs

[Andy Sharpe]

Hi all,

DVARP will be holding our third public workshop on SEPTA's new train cars (Silverliner Vs) next Wednesday. Do you dislike the noise from the automated announcements or the clanging of the hand brake weights? Do you love the panoramic windows? If you have an opinion, come and interact with us and other SEPTA riders to discuss and debate how the Silverliner Vs can be improved and what SEPTA is doing right with them. The workshop will be on Wednesday, Sept. 12th from 6:30-8 PM at our Center City office (address is in my signature below). If you want to attend, shoot me a quick e-mail at the address below.

Remember, improved mass transit service begins with us, the riders.

Andy Sharpe
Communications Director
Delaware Valley Association of Rail Passengers
1601 Walnut St., Suite 1129
Philadelphia, PA 19102-2913
Phone: 215-RAILWAY (215-724-5929)
E-mail: sharpe@dvarp.org
@PhillyDVARP on Twitter and Facebook

[Andy Sharpe]

Howdy all,

Just as a reminder, our public workshop on the pros and cons of SEPTA's new rail cars is tomorrow evening from 6:30-8 PM at our Center City office (address is in my signature below). I'd encourage all of you who ride Regional Rail to attend. Please RSVP at the e-mail addy below.

Andy Sharpe
Communications Director
Delaware Valley Association of Rail Passengers
1601 Walnut St., Suite 1129
Philadelphia, PA 19102-2913
Phone: 215-RAILWAY (215-724-5929)
E-mail: sharpe@dvarp.org
@PhillyDVARP on Twitter and Facebook

[Volanova]

Ah, dang it, I wish I could make it, but I'm a no-go for tomorrow night. Do you plan on hosting any more of these sessions?

[Andy Sharpe]

Hi Vola,

We have a number of topics that we want to cover in future public workshops, so it might be a while before we re-visit the Silverliner Vs. City Transit Division and subway issues are high on our priority list, as is high-speed rail. You can reply here with any recommendations for the Silverliner Vs, and I'll try to mention them during the workshop.

Ah, dang it, I wish I could make it, but I'm a no-go for tomorrow night. Do you plan on hosting any more of these sessions?

[redpinstripes]

I dont like the automated anouncements in the quiet ride car or that the front seats are usually barricaded.

[Volanova]

Hi Vola,

We have a number of topics that we want to cover in future public workshops, so it might be a while before we re-visit the Silverliner Vs. City Transit Division and subway issues are high on our priority list, as is high-speed rail. You can reply here with any recommendations for the Silverliner Vs, and I'll try to mention them during the workshop.

Awesome, thanks!

I think my recommendations would be as follows:
- Seating. While the high backs are nice on the current seats, the angle between the seat and back is too acute, and leg room is an issue. They're just not very ergonomically designed.
- Notifications. Especially in the quiet car, notifications are too loud. On a separate note, the information is often incorrect, or simply nonexistent. Seems like the latter could be a software issue though.
- Ride quality. Even on Amtrak owned lines that have very high quality welded rail construction, the ride quality is often terrible. Passengers are jolted back and forth with every curve. This could just be that the suspensions are still in a break-in period and will loosen up over time to provide a smoother ride, or it could be permanent. I'm not familiar enough with the trucks and suspensions to tell.
- Interior noise. Air conditioning blowers, exterior rail noise, the aforementioned announcements and conductors buzzers, and knocking brake counterweights (which appear to be being fixed with bumpers) all add up to a not-so quiet ride.
- Reliability. There seem to be way too many breakdowns and quick-fixes on items that shouldn't be issues on a modern commuter rail car, like cars not wanting to restart after a loss of power.
- Visual 'noise'. The ads that feature lots of movement and flashing lights (I'm looking at you, webuyanycar.com) can be annoying in the extreme. Also, not having a function to turn down internal lighting at night creates an almost uncomfortably bright environment.

I'm sure at least three out of the six have been harped on ad infinitum, but one more voice can't hurt!

From my own perspective, it seems like there were just a lot of poor engineering decisions in the design of the car, almost like they were put together to look nice, but no one really took a good, hard look at the design when it came to providing passenger comfort and details. Things that I look for when I'm car shopping, such as the fit of interior parts, noise, comfort of seats, efficiency of space utilization, etc., just don't seem to have been factored in.

That being said, there are many good things about the SLV - they ARE nicer on the inside than previous iterations, and provide a much better experience for someone not intimately familiar with the system since they have exterior announcements and electronic signboards with destination information. Placing entry and exit doors inside the passenger compartment prevents the front front car from being reduced to one-door operation since the engineer isn't standing in front of a door. The large windows are great for sightseeing, and really make the car feel much less claustrophobic. By my understanding, they are capable of much higher speeds than previous iterations, opening the doorway for faster service if speed limits are raised. Even though Regional Rail is extremely safe from a crime standpoint, especially when compared with City Division services, the addition of cameras are a welcome addition.

[CHIOSSO]

Whats the longest amount of time you would have to spend time on this train?

[Andy Sharpe]

Hi Chiosso,

The workshop is open to anyone who has ever ridden a Silverliner V car. I guess this means the longest amount of time would be 1 second. If you have spent at least a second on one of the new rail cars, stop on by!

Whats the longest amount of time you would have to spend time on this train?

[CHIOSSO]

No Andy was speaking to Volanova, he must spend hours on the train everyday.

[Volanova]

Whats the longest amount of time you would have to spend time on this train?

I don't understand the point of the question. Does it matter if I spend 15 minutes or an hour and a half each way if the complaints and praises are legitimate?

Since you want to know, I spend at least a little over an hour round trip every day for work, plus other non-work-commuting trips. Enough time for the benefits and drawbacks of the train to be obvious, to say the least.

[The Count]

Hi Chiosso,

The workshop is open to anyone who has ever ridden a Silverliner V car. I guess this means the longest amount of time would be 1 second. If you have spent at least a second on one of the new rail cars, stop on by!

So what were some of the things discussed at this meeting? Any changes in store as a result?

I'm fortunate enough that the new trains aren't in heavy rotation yet on my line (Manayunk), but Imm on one ride and WOW, the seats are pretty uncomfortable. I can't figure out hy exactly though I think it is the back.

Anyway, question: why can't people sit in the front two seats?

[Volanova]

Imm on one ride and WOW, the seats are pretty uncomfortable. I can't figure out hy exactly though I think it is the back.

See what I mean! The backs are just angled the wrong way or something. I can't quite put my finger on it, but I think that's what it is.

Anyway, question: why can't people sit in the front two seats?

At various times and places, SEPTA has apparently thrown forth a few answers for this, including, but not limited to: fear of individuals being front and center with a strike on a living being; security of the driver's compartment; the need for separated storage for conductors; and access to the left-hand window if needed for conductors or engineers when.

None of those reasons seem like very good ones

[The Count]

See what I mean! The backs are just angled the wrong way or something. I can't quite put my finger on it, but I think that's what it is.

I think I might have figured it out. The backs are very upright but I also think the size of the seat cushion is shorter between the swayback and what goes under your thighs. Combined these two thinks make it a pretty uncomfortable seat.

At various times and places, SEPTA has apparently thrown forth a few answers for this, including, but not limited to: fear of individuals being front and center with a strike on a living being; security of the driver's compartment; the need for separated storage for conductors; and access to the left-hand window if needed for conductors or engineers when.

None of those reasons seem like very good ones

All these reasons seem ridiculous.

Also, the lighting is so bright in here that I feel like I'm either in an operating room or a Stanley Kubrick film.

[Volanova]

I think I might have figured it out. The backs are very upright but I also think the size of the seat cushion is shorter between the swayback and what goes under your thighs. Combined these two thinks make it a pretty uncomfortable seat.

All these reasons seem ridiculous.

Also, the lighting is so bright in here that I feel like I'm either in an operating room or a Stanley Kubrick film.

I think you're right there. If they just extended the seat out a half inch or so, and maybe elevated the front of it by just a couple of degrees, it would make a world of difference. As it is, they're hard to get comfortable in for a long ride.

How'd the meeting go, Andy?

[Andy Sharpe]

The public workshop went well. The biggest improvement that attendees generally suggested involves the automated announcements. They wanted the announcements to be more intelligent (such as doing a better job with express and limited trains) and said they'd prefer an actual human voice. We tossed around the names of some local celebrities with distinctive voices who could be used.

A few other areas we talked about included partnering with a local news affiliate to add weather and headlines to the digital screens (similar to the partnership between PATH and NBC New York), addressing the flat spots on the wheels that make the trains noisier on the exterior and interior, fixing errors with the scrolling message, and correcting the door problems that have caused so many delays. Interestingly, the comfort of the seats didn't turn out to be a major complaint. We did devote some time to that, but many attendees actually thought the new seats are the most comfortable of all SEPTA vehicles. We did a poll, and the SVs outranked the Norristown High-Speed Line cars for the most comfortable seats. Also, the SEPTA rail riders didn't find the brightness of the interior lights to be objectionable. Count: You should have attended the workshop to let us know your observations.

There's much more information on DVARP's Facebook discussion page, including a photo of the whiteboard that summarizes all that we discussed. The one thing I was disappointed about was only one person from Philly Speaksland attended the workshop. Given the passion about mass transit that flows freely on here, I would have expected many more Speakers to attend. Hopefully, I can count on many more of you to attend future public workshops (we're looking at city transit issues and high-speed rail).

I'll keep y'all posted on future workshops.

I think you're right there. If they just extended the seat out a half inch or so, and maybe elevated the front of it by just a couple of degrees, it would make a world of difference. As it is, they're hard to get comfortable in for a long ride.

How'd the meeting go, Andy?

[The Count]

The public workshop went well. The biggest improvement that attendees generally suggested involves the automated announcements. They wanted the announcements to be more intelligent (such as doing a better job with express and limited trains) and said they'd prefer an actual human voice. We tossed around the names of some local celebrities with distinctive voices who could be used.

A few other areas we talked about included partnering with a local news affiliate to add weather and headlines to the digital screens (similar to the partnership between PATH and NBC New York), addressing the flat spots on the wheels that make the trains noisier on the exterior and interior, fixing errors with the scrolling message, and correcting the door problems that have caused so many delays. Interestingly, the comfort of the seats didn't turn out to be a major complaint. We did devote some time to that, but many attendees actually thought the new seats are the most comfortable of all SEPTA vehicles. We did a poll, and the SVs outranked the Norristown High-Speed Line cars for the most comfortable seats. Also, the SEPTA rail riders didn't find the brightness of the interior lights to be objectionable. Count: You should have attended the workshop to let us know your observations.

There's much more information on DVARP's Facebook discussion page, including a photo of the whiteboard that summarizes all that we discussed. The one thing I was disappointed about was only one person from Philly Speaksland attended the workshop. Given the passion about mass transit that flows freely on here, I would have expected many more Speakers to attend. Hopefully, I can count on many more of you to attend future public workshops (we're looking at city transit issues and high-speed rail).

I'll keep y'all posted on future workshops.

Interesting feedback.

Did nobody ask why you can't sit in the front seats of the first car?

At the time of this meeting I had only been on the new train one time. I ride Norristown line and they do not seem to be in heavy use there yet.

[redpinstripes]

The wheels have flat spots?! Wtf. I thought we had the wheel invented already.

[Andy Sharpe]

Hi Count,

We discussed the roping off of the front (sometime front 3) seats some. We told attendees to let us know if/when they see more than just the front seat roped off, and to record the train route, #, and a description of the crew. While we're skeptical of the need to cordon off any seats, SEPTA doesn't seem eager to budge on this. They say it's a liability issue if (God forbid) a train hits a pedestrian or car and someone(s) sitting in the front seat sees and hears it.

By the way, we've seen plenty of the Silverliner Vs on the Norristown Line. How often do you ride the line?

Interesting feedback.

Did nobody ask why you can't sit in the front seats of the first car?

At the time of this meeting I had only been on the new train one time. I ride Norristown line and they do not seem to be in heavy use there yet.

[The Count]

Hi Count,

We discussed the roping off of the front (sometime front 3) seats some. We told attendees to let us know if/when they see more than just the front seat roped off, and to record the train route, #, and a description of the crew. While we're skeptical of the need to cordon off any seats, SEPTA doesn't seem eager to budge on this. They say it's a liability issue if (God forbid) a train hits a pedestrian or car and someone(s) sitting in the front seat sees and hears it.

By the way, we've seen plenty of the Silverliner Vs on the Norristown Line. How often do you ride the line?

When I don't ride my bike to work I take the 6:52 am out of EF and the 5:05 PM out of Suburban. Neither of those trains have ever been a new one.

Their reason for roping off the front row is preposterous. First of all, if this was such a concern, why did they design the train the way they did. Secondly, you can sit in the secon row and have nearly jut as clear a view of the tracks and would certainly witness a hypothetical collision.

Something else is going on with that front row.

[track1sectionA]

They say it's a liability issue if (God forbid) a train hits a pedestrian or car and someone(s) sitting in the front seat sees and hears it.

Isn't more likely that the concern is about injuries to passengers in the front rather than them just witnessing something gruesome?