New rail stations, tunnel to airport eyed for Philadelphia

[eldondre]

Is it subsidized if you get on a stop before Philadelphia? I thought you had said it was subsidized. I remember seeing before that Keystone routes were cheaper than NE Regional. Just a coincidence?

correct, Amtrak charges penndot for the train west of Harrisburg. the pricing you are talking is not related to the subsidies. I'd like to further point out that the $50-70 for a clean, fast, and punctual train isn't that bad...the problem is the regionals are old, late, and not particularly great. they are charging a premium price for an inferior product. there really should be four levels of service between the two cities even on today's infrastructure (in fact, it used to be this way). a premium product, a nice product (regional), and budget product ($50 RT, let's say, but an 1h45m..much like the clockers used to be instead of 80m), and commuter.

And I think this reinforces the main point of my original comments and questions. How much more could Amtrak really do to increase efficiency before it even considers boring through the center of Philadelphia?

probably quite a bit. the plan as put forward isn't about efficient use of capital but putting togother political consenus. market east is something political leaders want to improve, political leaders also like the idea of an airport stop.

And that is where a lot of that discussion needs to be. Would the investment offset other issues with the PHL-NYC airspace and airport logistics? Would it make sense for a carrier like US Airways to say "we are cutting back the amount of our direct flights to NY and instead sending people to PHL with a rail transfer." Is that worth the extra money us airways would have to pay? Would Amtrak be allowed to make a deal with an airline to give them discount ticket pricing for dedicated business?

Amtrak had a deal with continental at newark (I have no idea if that survived the merger). in fact, Amtrak could entire into such a deal with an entire airport should an airport see fit. basically, your connecting plane is a train. people already do it on the keystone corridor with no marketing whatsoever.

[OffenseTaken]

And that is where a lot of that discussion needs to be. Would the investment offset other issues with the PHL-NYC airspace and airport logistics? Would it make sense for a carrier like US Airways to say "we are cutting back the amount of our direct flights to NY and instead sending people to PHL with a rail transfer." Is that worth the extra money us airways would have to pay? Would Amtrak be allowed to make a deal with an airline to give them discount ticket pricing for dedicated business?

That is the stuff that is probably important to talk about in regards to PHL and Amtrak. At the same time, does SEPTA then cancel the R1 with a deal for Amtrak to carry PHL - Market East riders at regional rail rates (on standard Amtrak)?

I think it's extremely unlikely that Amtrak had people travelling in and out of Philadelphia in mind at all for the airport station. Every rider going from PHL to CC represents a seat that would have to be empty at the station where they get on, and empty again when they get off at the next. To make a profit off those seats, Amtrak would have to charge an exorbitantly high rate for an eight-mile trip that the R1 currently makes (promptly enough, and for the relative bargain of $7). Then, if they wanted to put butts in the seats south of PHL and north of CC, they'd have to do so at a discount, to make up for lower demand.

In fact, if this all gets built, I wouldn't be surprised if you couldn't even buy a ticket for Philadelphia from the PHL station. The high-speed Thalys has a station at Amsterdam-Schiphol, but the shortest trip you can make from there is to Antwerp (about the same distance as PHL-->New York, incidentally).

[MariusPontmercy]

I thought we already discussed this inane plan to death? Does anyone actually think its happening?

[radiocolin]

Zoo interlocking and the zoo curves are a massive bottleneck for anything into or out of 30th street, not just because of speed but because of volume.

If you want high speed rails, you need to do it off the Northeast Corridor.

[hammersklavier]

New rail stations, tunnel to airport eyed for Philadelphia

Torn about the idea.

For starters, if they say $3 billion, it will probably be $5 billion and even more when you factor in costs 10 years from now.

Second, I would be curious to see a comparison of what else could be done for the money and the time savings. They project $3 billion to save 30 minutes. What would be the cost to do upgrades that shave only 15 minutes? Amtrak is already faster than driving from Philadelphia to NYC. How much extra time makes a difference in that stretch?

Third, I am curious why you would do the new station in Market East and not west of City Hall in the business district by Suburban Station.

Fourth, how important is Amtrak to the airport? We already do have regional rail. Can the airport handle any significant increase in volume if it turned into a larger international hub?

Fifth, 30th St. is not the outlier from Center City like it was 20 years ago and is only going to be even more significant as Penn and other developers keep ramping up development around it. Is the solution to move the Amtrak station to Center City or is the better and cheaper solution to make a much better connection between 30th St and the subway? (Currently you have to walk outside through traffic and under the street to get to it.)

On the reverse argument, I can understand the desire to dump Amtrak travelers right next to the Convention Center and the Historic District.

Raider, my minimal estimate for this project is $10 billion, or ~333% more than their claimed price tag. ($10 billion is the total cost of the similar-in-scale Gotthard Base Tunnel.) Don't forget that:

a) There is a feasible low-curvature route that already links the NEC with the Airport and back again (the Chester Branch), which can be repurposed; and
b) Any attempt at a Market East stop would have to involve tunneling under South Philly (=sandy, swampy soil, and a lack of surface easements = exponential expense increases)

The desire to avoid Zoo (the main technical issue) is...understandable...but I feel the interlocking can be further optimized to support 100 kph (~60 mph) service (from the ~35 mph service the interlocking today supports).

You can go about repurposing the Chester Branch for ~$1b, and rebuild the 54th St. Branch (freight bypass) for another. Which would offer the benefit of an Airport HSR stop without the flatly egregious expense of a Market East tunnel. It would also allow the fastest trains, which would bypass an Airport stop anyway, to continue using the existing NEC routing.

[OffenseTaken]

probably quite a bit. the plan as put forward isn't about efficient use of capital but putting togother political consenus. market east is something political leaders want to improve, political leaders also like the idea of an airport stop.

This would explain why Amtrak is even feigning consideration of this idea. I can't imagine why they would spend billions boring a new tunnel through the middle of town just to shave a minute or two off the Acela's travel time, then turn around and blow all the time saved on a whole new stop that might come in handy once in a while, for a few people.

Zoo interlocking and the zoo curves are a massive bottleneck for anything into or out of 30th street, not just because of speed but because of volume.

If you want high speed rails, you need to do it off the Northeast Corridor.

It's a pain in the ass, but how much faster would the trains really be if they went through a new Market East tunnel?

[raider.adam]

Amtrak has already won this battle and the airlines have cut back the number of PHL - WAS and PHL - NYC flights back considerably over the past decade or so. Amtrak is by a large margin the the dominant carrier between PHL - NY and PHL - WAS. They also have 75% market share NY - WAS. And they did this without building a multi-billion dollar tunnel to serve PHL.

Correct. I am just trying to find if there is a cost justification for making sure amtrak stops at PHL. I just have trouble seeing it for anything beyond international flights coming into the NE corridor.

I think it's extremely unlikely that Amtrak had people travelling in and out of Philadelphia in mind at all for the airport station. Every rider going from PHL to CC represents a seat that would have to be empty at the station where they get on, and empty again when they get off at the next. To make a profit off those seats, Amtrak would have to charge an exorbitantly high rate for an eight-mile trip that the R1 currently makes (promptly enough, and for the relative bargain of $7). Then, if they wanted to put butts in the seats south of PHL and north of CC, they'd have to do so at a discount, to make up for lower demand.

Good point. Of course how full are trains coming into PHL from DC right now? But yeah, I don't see why someone would pay 3 times as much to take amtrak over R1 into CC.

[Naveen]

I wouldn't be surprised if the Lincoln Tunnel is one of the biggest reasons for taking Amtrak (god knows it is for me when I have to go up for work - I'll even carry a large box of equipment with me before driving up).

Same here. The horror.

That is always one of the scariest questions when it comes to public works. That other project over there is $20 billion, so this $1 billion dollars is really nothing.

Right, but only if we're talking unrelated projects. If Project B creates a value that reduces the long-term cost of Project A (in this case, more train service reducing the amount of repeated road/bridge/tunnel work & expansion), then it could be worth it. Again, couldbe.

The Illinoisan in me bites his thumb at you.

Someone from New York told me Illinois has a big city too, but they couldn't remember the name.

[raider.adam]

Someone from New York told me Illinois has a big city too, but they couldn't remember the name.

I'm surprised someone form New York knew there was a place outside of New York.

[eldondre]

This would explain why Amtrak is even feigning consideration of this idea. I can't imagine why they would spend billions boring a new tunnel through the middle of town just to shave a minute or two off the Acela's travel time, then turn around and blow all the time saved on a whole new stop that might come in handy once in a while, for a few people.

the plan is so expensive because it includes upgrades that every agency along the corridor wants on top of Amtrak's desires and big splash station projects. if you'll remember, the company was chastised for putting forward a $10 bn state of good repair plan a few years back.

[3rd&Brown]

Jeez, that they're even CONSIDERING this is insane. $3b for a 15 minute savings? No, thanks, not even for 1/10th the price.

It's not just about us. It's about the NE corridor. In order to speed times between DC and NYC, our component of the route needs to be sped up as well. We just benefit.

Honestly, I think this is tremendous.

And Adam, I've definitely gotten to NYC in an hour and a half (through the tunnel). It all depends on when you go. I also don't do the silly Betsy Ross Bridge to NJ Turnpike connection. All those lights drive me crazy. I take 95N to Rt 1 to 29S to 195E (exactly one light). This puts you on the NJ Turnpike at 7A. You're virtually half way there at that point, and it's about 40 minutes from my door.

It will be even faster when the interchange is built for the PA Turnpike/95 in Bucks County.