Are More Subways Needed?

[chris123678]

Septa only has the Market Frankford El, Broad Street Subway, and The Norristown Highspeed line which is considered heavy rail.
Do you think there is a need for more subway lines, light rail, expanpasions? Discontinuations?
Your take,

[kidphilly]

How fast can the igh Speed line go? is there an ability make the trains longer on this track? This seems like a line that could be extended and looped out through KOP etc and maybe then back down through Conshy and through Manyunk and into the Art Museum area and use the ROW to bring it into the BSL or BSL spur

[radiocolin]

The Arch Street and Locust Street subways, had their loop ever been completed, would have been a good asset to the city. However, in this era of unions and environmental impact statements, I think their cost would far outweigh their benefit. The Center City bus network is strong, and should be enhanced (along the lines of Boston's Silver Line).

http://www.phillyhistory.org/PhotoAr...?mediaId=24913
http://www.phillyhistory.org/PhotoAr...?mediaId=18893
http://www.phillyhistory.org/PhotoAr...?mediaId=24935
http://www.phillyhistory.org/PhotoAr...?mediaId=38685

[chris123678]

I think the Norristown Highspeed line needs a new makeover. With passenger service increasing, i think it needs to be turned into a subway, with more than 1 cars. If Septa finally follows through with there plans to extend it to King Of Prussia Mall, it will be jammed packed.
The 123,124,125 busses get crowded very quickly.

[Giavella Water]

Septa only has the Market Frankford El, Broad Street Subway, and The Norristown Highspeed line which is considered heavy rail.
Do you think there is a need for more subway lines, light rail, expanpasions? Discontinuations?
Your take,

The Broad St. Subway should be extended to the Naval Base since it is becoming a fine industrial park.

[dcss1205]

The Broad St. Subway should be extended to the Naval Base since it is becoming a fine industrial park.

That is in the 2035 Plan. You should see the early 1900 plans, available somewhere on this blog. The one with the 29th Street elevated railway.

[radiocolin]

The Broad St. Subway should be extended to the Naval Base since it is becoming a fine industrial park.

Take it one step further, and extend it into Gloucester City. Unfortunately that would involve DRPA so it would never happen. They're too busy studying PATCO to Glassboro for the 9th time since service ended in 1973.

[Strandherd]

This was a map at the FLP that I scanned a couple of years back of the planned subway system.



There are a few fantasy maps floating around on the interwebs that dovetail off of this one.

[chris123678]

Route 23 trolley service should be reinstated, or maybe become a subway.

[BarryG]

Route 23 trolley service should be reinstated, or maybe become a subway.

Maybe on Germantown Ave, but not in South Philly. Anyone who has ridden then 17 or 47 bus knows that there is demand for rapid transit to both sides of south Philly. A subway two blocks from the Broad St Line would be plain dumb and a trolley on 11th/12th St would be a downgrade in service, not an upgrade.

[Jtom]

Yes, residents of Northeast Philadelphia need more options. The el ends in Frankford, though the NE extends well north of Bridge and Pratt. Either extend the el or build a subway under Roosevelt Boulevard (there was a station apparently completed at Adams and the Boulevard, but it was never put to use).

Of course, none of this will ever happen, but it's nice to dream.

[chris123678]

Yes, The El should be extended, Northeast Philly is rather large.

[raider.adam]

The Broad St. Subway should be extended to the Naval Base since it is becoming a fine industrial park.

What percentage of the tenants there are factories?

Take it one step further, and extend it into Gloucester City. Unfortunately that would involve DRPA so it would never happen. They're too busy studying PATCO to Glassboro for the 9th time since service ended in 1973.

That I agree with. If you extend the BSL, it should be across the river. Give South Jersian's a cheap and easy way to get to the sports complex and down town as well as to University City (with a transfer). Suck up their commuter wage taxes, sales taxes and amusement taxes and at the same time remove traffic and burden from the Walt Whitman.

Route 23 trolley service should be reinstated, or maybe become a subway.

Trolley's that don't eventually go underground suck and shouldn't replace wheeled buses.

[luchobucho]

What percentage of the tenants there are factories?

Very few. It's being built out as a commercial park more than anything. The navy foundry and test facilities and the aker are the only real industrial uses. Everything else is light commercial. I think there is a lab down there and Jeff hospital has a surgical center.

It's basically an office park and a craptastically suburban one at that, particularly down on the east end. Only urbn seems to be truly invested in being in "downtown" navy yard. Most of the other activity is new development on the fringes in the greenfield areas. Lame.

[raider.adam]

Very few. It's being built out as a commercial park more than anything. The navy foundry and test facilities and the aker are the only real industrial uses. Everything else is light commercial. I think there is a lab down there and Jeff hospital has a surgical center.

It's basically an office park and a craptastically suburban one at that, particularly down on the east end. Only urbn seems to be truly invested in being in "downtown" navy yard. Most of the other activity is new development on the fringes in the greenfield areas. Lame.

Yeah, that was pretty much what I was alluding to and hoping someone else would expand on. I don't think the Navy Yard in of itself is a reason to extend the BSL. A station there on the way to a river crossing? Sure.


Of course all of this is under the dream that Philadlephia will get its finances in shape to where they would think big like subway expansion. Currently the best idea they got is pissing away $800 million of my bridge toll on a crappy waterfront light rail.

[concourse]

Phila2035 suggest extending the BSL along the Roosevelt Blvd. almost to the northeast city border. I think it makes sense to extend it to Pennypack--after that the densities drop off drastically. Other than that, I don't think any suggestions for heavy rail are particularly realistic of necessary.

What I would like to see is improved streetcars. That means emulating the new generation of European tramways when we can. I agree that bringing back streetcars as they were wouldn't be beneficial as BarryG mentions, but providing trams with low level platforms, signal prioritization and routes where they are partially separated from traffic substantially increases their speed over street cars without being as difficult to build as heavy rail. The Portland Streetcar isn't even what I mean. It provides benefits over older streetcars but the stops are too close to each other and it provides no areas of dedicated right of way. The Bordeaux Tramway is nice because it provides separation for the tram but allows cars to pass if necessary. That could obviously work on parts of Girard like this but could also take away a lane where it would provide a large speed benefit. The Bordeaux Tramway runs 7 (and 5) car articulated trains so it provides rapid transit like ridership. You just need to have consensus that it's worth dedicated more road space to trams instead of cars.

[MarketStEl]

concourse: The Northeast Spur subway is the great chimera of Philadelphia transportation planning. You did notice the "Northeast Boulevard Elevated" on that map Strandherd posted, right? That map, BTW, dates from 1913. We got the Frankford Elevated - most of it; you will note it continues past Bridge Street on the map; its intended final terminus was Frankford Avenue and Rhawn Street, past Mayfair - and the Broad Street Subway trunk line, but nothing else.

Work on the Northeast Boulevard began in 1911, two years before that map was published. Not long after it was published, the street was renamed for President Theodore Roosevelt.

You will also note a dotted line on that map, branching off the Frankford Elevated in Frankford and running up "Castor Road" and Bustleton Avenue, identified as the "35th Ward Surface Line." This line, the only streetcar line to be built and owned by the City of Philadelphia, survives today as the Route 59 trolleybus from Margaret-Orthodox El station to Bell's Corner, where Castor and Bustleton avenues meet. Beyond that point, the Route 58 bus line up Bustleton Avenue follows its route.

raider.adam: Not if they operate in reserved medians or private right-of-way they don't. Such trolley lines generally go by the moniker "light rail" today - which is what you are also talking about, concourse.

[MarketStEl]

Yeah, that was pretty much what I was alluding to and hoping someone else would expand on. I don't think the Navy Yard in of itself is a reason to extend the BSL. A station there on the way to a river crossing? Sure.


Of course all of this is under the dream that Philadlephia will get its finances in shape to where they would think big like subway expansion. Currently the best idea they got is pissing away $800 million of my bridge toll on a crappy waterfront light rail.

Get your bogeyman right - that idea is the Delaware River Port Authority's, not the city's.

Which reminds me: How closer are we to that Camden-Glassboro light rail line? (That route was identified as "Corridor C" in the 1950s Parsons Brinckerhoff study that recommended rapid transit lines connecting Philadelphia and Southern New Jersey. The line operating in "Corridor A" - Camden to Kirkwood - opened in 1969 as the Lindenwold High-Speed Line. There is, as far as I know, no talk about operating any kind of rail transit in "Corridor B" - Camden to Moorestown.)

[Hal]

Do you think there is a need for more subway lines, light rail, expanpasions? Discontinuations?

Realistically, now that there's a Casino at Valley Forge, you're most likely to see an actual expansion of service from 69th Street Station to King of Prussia Mall (and then to the Valley Forge Casino).

http://www.philadelphiaspeaks.com/fo...ns-philly.html

However, to really make the route popular for suburban users, it would have to be a one-seat ride.

Actually, there IS one realistic subway expansion
extend the Market Frankford El along the Route 100 Trolley route to Norristown, then add a branch to KOP.

The first part, conversion, would be minor, re-gauge the tracks, expand the platforms.
Main bottleneck is likely the Route-100 Trolley Bridge over the Schuylkill at Norristown,
I'll wager it just barely meets standards for the current trolleys, it would have to be replaced if
it were to hold a full consists of MFL cars.

Next step, MLF extension to KOP, run along the edge of the Schuylkill ROW straight to KOP.


Per mixiboli




Hal

[BarryG]

Realistically, now that there's a Casino at Valley Forge, you're most likely to see an actual expansion of service from 69th Street Station to King of Prussia Mall (and then to the Valley Forge Casino).

http://www.philadelphiaspeaks.com/fo...ns-philly.html

However, to really make the route popular for suburban users, it would have to be a one-seat ride.

Actually, there IS one realistic subway expansion
extend the Market Frankford El along the Route 100 Trolley route to Norristown, then add a branch to KOP.

The first part, conversion, would be minor, re-gauge the tracks, expand the platforms.
Main bottleneck is likely the Route-100 Trolley Bridge over the Schuylkill at Norristown,
I'll wager it just barely meets standards for the current trolleys, it would have to be replaced if
it were to hold a full consists of MFL cars.

Next step, MLF extension to KOP, run along the edge of the Schuylkill ROW straight to KOP.


Per mixiboli

Hal

Where have entire rail lines been built for casinos in the modern era? Any influence the casino has on the Rt 100 extension getting built would be minimal.

What is the advantage of extending the El along the 100 route over just extended the 100 itself? Running the el an extra 14 miles would cause a lot more problems than it would solve.