Are More Subways Needed?

[eldondre]

I was referring more to a middle ground where SEPTA still does their normal transfer charge, but remove it for transfers to subways.

I wonder how many bus to bus transfers there are? I can't imagine it's good policy to stick it to such people. raise the base fare (if necessary) and eliminate all transfers.

[raider.adam]

I wonder how many bus to bus transfers there are? I can't imagine it's good policy to stick it to such people. raise the base fare (if necessary) and eliminate all transfers.

They should be able to easily tell you those numbers when they implement the new fare system. It would be sort of neat if they did open data APIs for people to analyze ridership info.

[BarryG]

I wonder how many bus to bus transfers there are? I can't imagine it's good policy to stick it to such people. raise the base fare (if necessary) and eliminate all transfers.

SEPTA would just tell you to buy a TransPass.

[eldondre]

SEPTA would just tell you to buy a TransPass.

SEPTA is retarded. you've probably noticed that cash fares are up in both of the last two years. the only people they're nailing are those who can't afford or don't need a transpass.

[eldondre]

so it's my understanding that transfers used to be free and more people did, indeed, transfer.

[BarryG]

so it's my understanding that transfers used to be free and more people did, indeed, transfer.

When were they free? At least as far back as the '80s they were not, and were expensive.

[raider.adam]

SEPTA mulling a new transfer policy | PlanPhilly: Planning Philadelphia's Future

[eldondre]

When were they free? At least as far back as the '80s they were not, and were expensive.

I believe he said up until the 80s. He didn't give exact dates but the 80's seems like when things went off the tracks for septa in general. Seems like a typical septa response to.funding cuts..screw the riders and make the system less efficient.

[OffenseTaken]

SEPTA mulling a new transfer policy | PlanPhilly: Planning Philadelphia's Future

This sounds kind of annoying. I'm fairly adept at mental math and I would have a hard time calculating the cost of some trips, particularly while I was in a hurry to get somewhere. The new payment system already takes care of the most irksome thing about transfers (paying exact change in cash, even if you've already gone to the trouble of getting tokens). If they're going to mess with it any further, it shouldn't be to make it more complicated.

I guess you could say the worst thing about the transfer charge is that it exists at all, but that's not going anywhere ITE.

[eldondre]

just get rid of the transfer charge
http://dvarp.org/Fare%20restructuring%20FAQ.pdf

–Eight percent of the ridership is still too many people to impose such a harmful plan
on. A...–Part of the reason this figure is so low is SEPTA has already done much to discourage
transfer use. SEPTA’s current transfer charge of 60 cents is already the highest in the
nation

from 1916

Statistics show that only 6 percent of riders use these exchange tickets and the irritation which they create is all out of proportion to the number of people affected. It is the injustice of the situation by which free transfers are available at certain points while at other points, equally or more deserving, 3 cents additional is charged [fwiw, the base fare appears to be ~5 cents ]. It is unjust discrimination which creates the irritation. In the unification of the system, for which the lease of the new lines should provide, this source of irritation should be eliminated.

http://books.google.com/books?id=vas...ansfer&f=false

also of interest to this thread, it includes a diagram that shows a station on the BR spur at vine st but also broad and locust. it indicates the intent of the BR spur was to run north under 16th and then become the "future parkway subway"...coming full circle to the art museum suggestion. by using 16th st, it is indicated that the parkway line transfers to the el AND BSL would occur at market st would now occur at walnut AFTER the majority of people had disembarked.. it also indicates that rather than city hall, the station be built under the then proposed reyburn plaza, a league island extension, a southwest extension via federal st, and a northward extension to olney (terminus was at erie). it also suggests an extension of the market line to nj under the river. it also appears that the subway was only to be four tracks between erie and ridge, two tracks down to spruce. lastly, rather than walnut-locust, it was to be chestnut-walnut.

also of interest, why he thought city hall was the wrong place for a station

1 Its extremely high cost
2. It is not the proper place to make a general transfer between rapid transit lines.
3. The station is too close to chestnut st on the south
4. Liability of damage to city hall
...6. excessive depth required
7. all entrances and exits to the stations are either adjacent to or inside City Hall, necessitating that all passengers cross the inclosing streets, congested with traffic of all kinds. This is one of the most congested points in the city and this station would increase it by 300% or more.

[reasons in favor of reyburn/arch st]
1. much lower cost
2. better distribution of stations
3. no great risk of damage to city hall
4. Platforms much nearer the street surface
5. Much better light and air than if placed underneath a building. Station will not be obstructed with heavy wall and underpinning columns.
6. Allows utilization of the Arch st surface line to relieve the market line
...8. less surface congestion

[Lakey]

I believe he said up until the 80s. He didn't give exact dates but the 80's seems like when things went off the tracks for septa in general. Seems like a typical septa response to.funding cuts..screw the riders and make the system less efficient.

Yes there used to be free transfers. It's been so long that I don't recall precisely when the change occurred, but I believe it coincided with the introduction of transpass in the early 1980s.

For septa to have gone off the rails in the 1980s it has to be assumed that septa was on the rails previously which it wasn't. There's no point in belaboring how bad septa's equipment and operations were in the 1970s, just suffice it to say that it was the low point in the agency's history.

[mixiboi]

The issue of getting rid of the transfer charge is that the new system won't have "paper" transfers to give for free.

Which many people in this city will hold on too because they like tangible things, so that going to be a rough fight.


The last "concept" I head from Septa for a replacement transfer system is this:

You pay full fare for your first ride and everything after that in that day is half fare. So for example:

23 southbound to erie: $2.00
Jump on the BSL to Walnut-Locust st: $1.00
Shop downtown
Jump back on the BSL to Erie: $1.00
Transfer to the 23: $1.00

Total transit cost: $5.00


Which is less cost then currently:

Same ride with paper transfer: $6.00
Same ride without paper transfers: $8.00


But of course this is all based on if SEPTA goes through with this concept.

[thoth]

The new plan seems ideally calibrated for RR riders who have to go somewhere else in the city besides the area around a train station. It seems to break down the other way around which is silly. How much does SEPTA realistically collect in transfer payments each year? Would elimination really be that costly in relation to how much it would improve the ridership experience? I feel like if I have to go somewhere on SEPTA outside of commuting, and it requires a paid transfer, I'll usually just use an alternate form of transit or walk the remainder.

The issue of getting rid of the transfer charge is that the new system won't have "paper" transfers to give for free.

Which many people in this city will hold on too because they like tangible things, so that going to be a rough fight.


The last "concept" I head from Septa for a replacement transfer system is this:

You pay full fare for your first ride and everything after that in that day is half fare. So for example:

23 southbound to erie: $2.00
Jump on the BSL to Walnut-Locust st: $1.00
Shop downtown
Jump back on the BSL to Erie: $1.00
Transfer to the 23: $1.00

Total transit cost: $5.00


Which is less cost then currently:

Same ride with paper transfer: $6.00
Same ride without paper transfers: $8.00


But of course this is all based on if SEPTA goes through with this concept.

[MarketStEl]

That book you link, eldondre, is a report produced by A. Merritt Taylor's successor as head of the Department of City Transit. It largely blasts Taylor's first proposal for a downtown loop subway, mainly on engineering and cost grounds.

Taylor's loop had stations beneath City Hall and between Chestnut and Walnut streets. Given that it envisioned the Parkway line branching off the trunk just N of City Hall via the tracks that would serve the western platform, it would have required a full interlocking between the two stations. I think the critic was right that this would have created a huge bottleneck.

[eldondre]

That book you link, eldondre, is a report produced by A. Merritt Taylor's successor as head of the Department of City Transit. It largely blasts Taylor's first proposal for a downtown loop subway, mainly on engineering and cost grounds.

Taylor's loop had stations beneath City Hall and between Chestnut and Walnut streets. Given that it envisioned the Parkway line branching off the trunk just N of City Hall via the tracks that would serve the western platform, it would have required a full interlocking between the two stations. I think the critic was right that this would have created a huge bottleneck.

yes, most of the ideas his successor put forward were solid, including his critique of city hall station. had the city listened to him, we wouldn't have the city hall problem we have today. seeing that the locost st tunnel was to have become the Parkway line helps make sense of that line, for me...and that would still be a useful extension today. I also found it fascinating that they were arguing to get rid of transfers back then. obviously at some point they were eliminated (they probably made more sense when you were transferring from one company's lines to another) and then brought back by a unified public agency.
ixiboi, that seems to be a replacement for the inconvenience pass. I'd point out that if you have a taken, today, that cost is $5.10..20% less if you can find a direct bus, even if it takes 20 minutes longer.

[mixiboi]

Unfortunately I'm using today's fare prices, which will NOT be the fare pricing in 2014. So it won't be 5 dollars to do that route when/if SEPTA goes wo this concept.

Which I fear people seeing the new NPT and the fare raise are connected....

[kidphilly]

How much would the Art Museum spur cost - rough estimate and how many years to build.

Also would anyone have a wild guess on an extension to KOP. and the Blvd spur. I am curious as I am trying to figure the cost per capita over the build duration. For example would 10 Billion over ten years cover it? In that sense a .5% increase in sales tax for Philadelphia, Bucks, Chester, and Montco would cover it. But also creat jobs and better infrastructure etc. I am confusing myself as a moderate who hates taxes. Maybe I have a fever

Lunchtime Quick Hits | Philadelphia Real Estate Blog

For Inspiration, Cash-Strapped SEPTA Looks to Regional Taxing Initiatives – Next American City

[thoth]

Lunchtime Quick Hits | Philadelphia Real Estate Blog

For Inspiration, Cash-Strapped SEPTA Looks to Regional Taxing Initiatives – Next American City

Sounds like a good way to get the suburban counties to bail out of SEPTA. Service in DE is ****ty because they don't want to chip more in for SEPTA.

[kidphilly]

Sounds like a good way to get the suburban counties to bail out of SEPTA. Service in DE is ****ty because they don't want to chip more in for SEPTA.

I think the time has come for better regional cohesion honestly, and the bill that comes with it

[raider.adam]

Sounds like a good way to get the suburban counties to bail out of SEPTA. Service in DE is ****ty because they don't want to chip more in for SEPTA.

I wish they would go about it the common sense way. Modify the state constitution so that way gas taxes can be used for public transit. Then, assess an additional gas tax that specifically goes to a "public transit trust fund". That way the money doesn't have to be fought over of how much of the pool goes to roads and mass transit. They each get their revenue pool to play with and PennDOT oversees both.

Stuff really doesn't need to be complicated.