Are More Subways Needed?

[kidphilly]

So were the Blvd extension an the RR tunnel the same price?

End of the day it is speculation in all other aspects not to mention no single PT change is the only factor on (hmmm think taxes) the CC job market. Also the net gain/loss is not absolutes for the ridership on either.

Also does anyone know what the operating cost of the Reading Station would be relative to ME?

Lastly, what is the Spring Garden Station. I remember coming into the Reading Terminal (man was the roof dark and sooty) but dont recall a Spring Garden station.

[eldondre]

So were the Blvd extension an the RR tunnel the same price?

End of the day it is speculation in all other aspects not to mention no single PT change is the only factor on (hmmm think taxes) the CC job market. Also the net gain/loss is not absolutes for the ridership on either.

Also does anyone know what the operating cost of the Reading Station would be relative to ME?

Lastly, what is the Spring Garden Station. I remember coming into the Reading Terminal (man was the roof dark and sooty) but dont recall a Spring Garden station.

It's still there. walk over to 8th and spring garden.
rizzo was given a choice by the feds since only one project could be funded. I have no doubt the old terminal was in need of repair at the time, in fact, the entire reading system needed work.

[MarketStEl]

You seem to think I'm just heaping scorn on Philadelphia or something. That's not true at all. I've lived in other cities enough that I wasn't surprised by the news of SEPTA's big recognition last month: I think it's not only the least dysfunctional public institution in this city, but one of the least dysfunctional transit systems anywhere.

As is my wont, I spent the social hour after church services on Sunday talking with the fellow who heads Regional Rail Planning for SEPTA. (We always talk shop. :-) )

He was lamenting that the fellow just named to the newly created post of Deputy Assistant General Manager, to whom all the operating people will report and who in turn will report to Joe Casey, is not an operations guy but a finance guy yet again. I had opined that SEPTA won the award mainly for good fiscal stewardship. And gripes about cost overruns on the El rebuild aside, SEPTA has managed its finances quite well for years. Back in the '90s, there were repeated audits of the agency conducted by both critics and supporters sure there was (to quote a former Phillyblog regular who constantly carped about the agency) "waste, fraud and abuse" at SEPTA. The audits found none, or at worst very little waste.

Over on one of the Facebook Philly transit discussion groups, however, I posted a more spirited defense of the agency much along the lines of what you said above, only longer. Many of the rail systems at our peer agencies are either falling apart on approaching the point where they will without major reconstruction. The oldest of the Second Subway Era systems, San Francisco/Oakland's BART and the Washington Metro, are both reaching the end of their design lives and will need billions to return to a state of good repair, and nobody in either area knows who's going to foot the bill and how yet. And if you've read the news, Washington's system is already in bad shape; the Takoma Park crash a couple of years ago merely revealed the extent of the rot.

We could, if you all prefer, move to Pittsburgh, where transit service has been cut in half through a series of Doomsday Service Plans while pensions eat up a bigger share of the Port Authority's budget and the agency just spent half a billion on a short subway extension of dubious merit. Any of you willing to trade SEPTA for that?

The city's system of taxation punishes residents less than it does businesses. So we can be happy that many people are settling here, but in tandem we have to acknowledge that businesses still avoid the city like a plague.

This is why a huge component of the city's resurgence has been as a kind of bedroom community to the suburbs. I forget the exact figure, but the number of those new CC residents who work outside the city is awfully high; to them, add all the wage-workers in West and North Philly who have longer outward commutes and much lower pay. When I was job-hunting as a new resident, the employment listings in Montco seemed to outnumber the ones in Philadelphia by a ratio of several to one (not including jobs in restaurants and bars, of course).

Been there, wrote about that, back in 2005 - a year before I became a reverse commuter for a little more than a year, commuting from Wash West to a job with a software firm in Yardley.

If anything, it's gotten worse since then. And that doesn't bode well for either Center City's long-term health or that of the city as a whole. I haven't been able to find detailed numbers yet from the 2010 Census, though I believe they've been released at the census tract level.

If $3.5bn suddenly fell out of the sky, a NE route or spur would be one of the two or three most advantageous ways to spend that money, as Adam pointed out upthread. Personally, I would rather see the money on more than just a huge favor to people in one section of town, but that's outside my ken. It's all immaterial, of course.

Well, that section of town does hold one third of the population of the entire city, so it's not like it's some sort of bribe for a privileged few.

BTW, eldondre and londoner: Just so we have documentary evidence of the difference between the Broad Street and Market-Frankford lines, here's a photo I shot on an eastbound El train between 11th and 8th Street stations at 7 p.m. last Friday. (Click on the image to enlarge it.)

IMG_4043.jpg

[MarketStEl]

It's still there. walk over to 8th and spring garden.
rizzo was given a choice by the feds since only one project could be funded. I have no doubt the old terminal was in need of repair at the time, in fact, the entire reading system needed work.

Spring Garden Regional Rail station sat on the viaduct that carried the Reading Railroad tracks across Spring Garden Street between 9th and 10th. All traces of it have vanished save (I believe) a boarded-up entrance stairwell from Spring Garden up to the tracks.

Spring Garden Ridge Spur Subway station was located where Ridge Avenue, 10th and Spring Garden streets cross. One stairway enclosure, to the southbound platform, remains in place but sealed in front of the Citizens Bank branch.

[mixiboi]

And on that point of repair, right after they open the commuter tunnel a section of the viaduct near Temple collapse, causing all trains on the Reading side to be shuttles for months.

Add on top of that the year long Regional Rail strike, it took till the last 2008 until the RR has gotten back to the ridership numbers it had before they built the tunnel.

Imagine how it would have been if this stuff didn't happen...maybe some stations and line would still be around....

[hammersklavier]

Right now SEPTA has some of the best repair of any system in the country. Granted there's a backlog (every system has one) and a couple of big-ticket projects yet to do (Wayne Jct. substation replacement, fare modernization) but SEPTA is certainly better-poised for extending its current services and/or start figuring out how to run buses in a post-peak-oil world than its peers--most specifically WMATA and excessively corrupt and powermongering BART.

[thoth]

Spring Garden Regional Rail station sat on the viaduct that carried the Reading Railroad tracks across Spring Garden Street between 9th and 10th. All traces of it have vanished save (I believe) a boarded-up entrance stairwell from Spring Garden up to the tracks.

9th and Spring Garden - Google Maps

That's the old station house.

[kidphilly]

9th and Spring Garden - Google Maps

That's the old station house.

Would that be part of the re done viaduct if ever built. Seems like a cool building, probaably not the best location today but who knows.

[ZARK]

9th and Spring Garden - Google Maps

That's the old station house.

Spring Garden Regional Rail station sat on the viaduct that carried the Reading Railroad tracks across Spring Garden Street between 9th and 10th. All traces of it have vanished save (I believe) a boarded-up entrance stairwell from Spring Garden up to the tracks.

Spring Garden Ridge Spur Subway station was located where Ridge Avenue, 10th and Spring Garden streets cross. One stairway enclosure, to the southbound platform, remains in place but sealed in front of the Citizens Bank branch.

From the jamiemoffett photostream...Reading viaduct - Flickr: Search

[thoth]

Would that be part of the re done viaduct if ever built. Seems like a cool building, probaably not the best location today but who knows.

I believe like all things related to the viaduct, the answer is "sure if we ever have the money ."

[OffenseTaken]

As is my wont, I spent the social hour after church services on Sunday talking with the fellow who heads Regional Rail Planning for SEPTA. (We always talk shop. :-) )

He was lamenting that the fellow just named to the newly created post of Deputy Assistant General Manager, to whom all the operating people will report and who in turn will report to Joe Casey, is not an operations guy but a finance guy yet again. I had opined that SEPTA won the award mainly for good fiscal stewardship. And gripes about cost overruns on the El rebuild aside, SEPTA has managed its finances quite well for years. Back in the '90s, there were repeated audits of the agency conducted by both critics and supporters sure there was (to quote a former Phillyblog regular who constantly carped about the agency) "waste, fraud and abuse" at SEPTA. The audits found none, or at worst very little waste.

Exactly. I really think the people who criticize SEPTA the most vocally as another poorly-run joke are the ones who have the luxury to consider everything cosmetically. People want shiny new stations that make them say "gee whiz," and they want smooth quiet subway rides, and they only want to pay two dollars a pop. Suburbanites who ride into CC once a month and are in no hurry to be anywhere when they do, are not in a position to appreciate the excellent service that we all get: they say "ew, this station is so ghetto" and get disgusted that a half-billion dollars isn't being spent on Disneyfying their experience. They've never had to take the 17 across town at 3 AM. Obviously, there's room for improvement: regional rail needs to cut its headways in half at least. But if SEPTA had undertaken some high-profile, Bore to the Shore-type project, would there even be regional rail service right now?

Been there, wrote about that, back in 2005 - a year before I became a reverse commuter for a little more than a year, commuting from Wash West to a job with a software firm in Yardley.

If anything, it's gotten worse since then. And that doesn't bode well for either Center City's long-term health or that of the city as a whole. I haven't been able to find detailed numbers yet from the 2010 Census, though I believe they've been released at the census tract level.

Well, at least I feel vindicated. I really don't think enough is being said about this extremely serious issue. I can't believe you wrote this article seven years ago and it's only more relevant now.

[mixiboi]

BTW, eldondre and londoner: Just so we have documentary evidence of the difference between the Broad Street and Market-Frankford lines, here's a photo I shot on an eastbound El train between 11th and 8th Street stations at 7 p.m. last Friday. (Click on the image to enlarge it.)

Attachment 126

Wait, I missed that tiny Photo...is that a SHOPPING CART on the EL?

[Brian616]

A hypothesis:
SEPTA isn't hurt so much by a lack of subways than by a really poor/unlucky fit of where where subways are vs. where the thriving parts of the city are. I'll wager that most of us could redraw the map over the current city (using the same track milage) to make a much better system. In fact, I'd love to see this.

[seand]

A hypothesis:
SEPTA isn't hurt so much by a lack of subways than by a really poor/unlucky fit of where where subways are vs. where the thriving parts of the city are. I'll wager that most of us could redraw the map over the current city (using the same track milage) to make a much better system. In fact, I'd love to see this.

By more or less following a simple X-Y access its hard to argue that the placement is disastrously wrong city wide. With the exception of the NE, debatably. Its regional rail service to job growth areas outside the city that is more of a problem.

[eldondre]

. I had opined that SEPTA won the award mainly for good fiscal stewardship. And gripes about cost overruns on the El rebuild aside, SEPTA has managed its finances quite well for years. Back in the '90s, there were repeated audits of the agency conducted by both critics and supporters sure there was (to quote a former Phillyblog regular who constantly carped about the agency) "waste, fraud and abuse" at SEPTA. The audits found none... if you all prefer, move to Pittsburgh, where transit service has been cut in half through a series of Doomsday Service Plans while pensions eat up a bigger share of the Port Authority's budget and the agency just spent half a billion on a short subway extension of dubious merit. Any of you willing to trade SEPTA for that?
Well, that section of town does hold one third of the population of the entire city, so it's not like it's some sort of bribe for a privileged few.

BTW, eldondre and londoner: Just so we have documentary evidence of the difference between the Broad Street and Market-Frankford lines, here's a photo I shot on an eastbound El train between 11th and 8th Street stations at 7 p.m. last Friday]

while I appreciate your spirited defense its ultimately misguided. Septa s financial conservatism actually has little to do with their very real incompetence in large projects which is not going to be found in an audit. The fact that ridership. Never really recovered to pretunnel levels undermines the claims of its utility to riders.
Btw Pittsburgh's north shore connector isn't terribly relevant since it was a political initiative

[OffenseTaken]

A hypothesis:
SEPTA isn't hurt so much by a lack of subways than by a really poor/unlucky fit of where where subways are vs. where the thriving parts of the city are. I'll wager that most of us could redraw the map over the current city (using the same track milage) to make a much better system. In fact, I'd love to see this.

Only one of the subway lines is not so well-placed, and that's only because it's a snapshot of where all the latest development was back in the 1920's. The most often-used line already runs on the best route that a train could have in this city; the third one would be far more useful if only it didn't end on a random street corner, a couple of blocks away from the first two subway lines. It's flawed, but it's not half-bad the way it is right now.

Of course, no one's going to pay attention to me but I really hope we don't start obsessing over yet another hypothetical new subway map.

[thoth]

A hypothesis:
SEPTA isn't hurt so much by a lack of subways than by a really poor/unlucky fit of where where subways are vs. where the thriving parts of the city are. I'll wager that most of us could redraw the map over the current city (using the same track milage) to make a much better system. In fact, I'd love to see this.

Some would argue that "luck" had little to do with it. Surprisingly, people don't like living near giant elevated train platforms.

I don't think cutting a subway down two of the city's most heavily trafficked and centralized thoroughfares is problematic. They just failed to connect several other critical parts of the city to the rapid transit network. You could seriously expand the system in a few key places and it would be world class. Connect Germantown with spur off BSL or convert an RR line to rapid transit format, extend MFL into NE Philly less than a mile, run more RR trains on the R6 to better serve Manayunk and Rox. That would solve most of my qualms about the system. Obviously you could run more train lines through N and South Philly, but sub to bus or sub and walking isn't the end of the world as it stands now, and I'm thinking lowest cost solutions. Really just RR service on steroids would work wonders.

[Brian616]

Some would argue that "luck" had little to do with it. Surprisingly, people don't like living near giant elevated train platforms.

I don't think cutting a subway down two of the city's most heavily trafficked and centralized thoroughfares is problematic. They just failed to connect several other critical parts of the city to the rapid transit network. You could seriously expand the system in a few key places and it would be world class. Connect Germantown with spur off BSL or convert an RR line to rapid transit format, extend MFL into NE Philly less than a mile, run more RR trains on the R6 to better serve Manayunk and Rox. That would solve most of my qualms about the system. Obviously you could run more train lines through N and South Philly, but sub to bus or sub and walking isn't the end of the world as it stands now, and I'm thinking lowest cost solutions. Really just RR service on steroids would work wonders.

Agree with all of this. My comment was more about the desolation on North Broad currently, and also the redundancy of the MFL and the RR trunk being a block apart. There are enough trains going through the CCCT that it could be a de facto downtown subway; of course, I'm sure few people actually use it that way now.

[thoth]

Agree with all of this. My comment was more about the desolation on North Broad currently, and also the redundancy of the MFL and the RR trunk being a block apart. There are enough trains going through the CCCT that it could be a de facto downtown subway; of course, I'm sure few people actually use it that way now.

There's external factors at play, like the city citing tons of housing projects right off N Broad. But N Broad is coming around, and S Broad never got too ****ty. Already it serves as a huge advantage for Temple and will only grow as the neighborhoods around it develop.

[kidphilly]

Also am curious if and what the plans ever were for extended the MFL further into the NE, to me it would makes sene to continue further down Frankford to like Deveroux then link with a an extended BLVD BSL extension (which to me should go all the way to the Neshaminy Mall/Interplex) and then if feasable somehow back through and terminate in Franklin Mills or something