Market Frankford Line,

[loveisnoise]

For those of you who think the bus is faster than the El, I dare you to give it a try. I once got on a bus at 8th in the middle of the day to take it to 15th. Stopped at EVERY block and to top it off, almost all the lights changed to red. At least the El skips a few of those blocks and doesn't get caught at red lights, unless of course, there is a signal problem.

Exactly.

I used to go to the ghettoview for movies. From Frankford and girard to the theater it takes 20 minutes and the bus is sporadic. On the el? I go from front and girard to 40th and walnut (to the rave) in 12 minutes. If that's not fast some people have serious OCD issues.

[jester]

For those of you who think the bus is faster than the El, I dare you to give it a try. I once got on a bus at 8th in the middle of the day to take it to 15th. Stopped at EVERY block and to top it off, almost all the lights changed to red. At least the El skips a few of those blocks and doesn't get caught at red lights, unless of course, there is a signal problem.

Agreed. Topside traffic during the day is a pain in the ass, and the El moves people very efficiently. It's not like it sits at the CC stops for very long either.

Thank g-d some of you don't make septa decisions. 11th street is worthless?!?! Hahahaha! Yeah- there's just this thing called the convention center and reading terminal market that may disagree.

Two blocks is smart. It isn't about time or what you think is correct; it is about moving millions of people throughout our city in an efficient manner without bottlenecking people. There are already a and b options. The el is amazing, and the only reliable service that appears every 4 minutes during the day while most busses are about as accurate as a broken clock.

As LIN and others have mentioned, those stops pick up and drop off people to several transfer nodes, many of which happen to be points of interest.

15th: BSL (free interchange), SSL (free int.), Suburban Station RR, City Hall
13th: SSL terminus (free int.), Gayborhood
11th: PCC, RTM, Market East RR
8th: PATCO
5th: Independence Mall
2nd: Old City

FWIW, the vaunted Swiss transit system has several tram stops that are roughly the same distance as El stops.

Millbourne is such a useless station that I imagine there must be some story behind why it even exists. I think every outbound train I've ever been on has skipped it, anyway.

I think it was to go to the Sears it used to be next to, which is now on 69th St.

I've often wondered this myself. I know that the station predates and (obviously) outlived the Sears. For those of you who might not know, Millbourne is actually its own town (well, a borough since this is PA) in DelCo, not a part of Upper Darby at all. Weird boundaries, too: Market Street and Cobbs Creek. I always assumed having a station here was something of a courtesy.

[loveisnoise]

I've often wondered this myself. I know that the station predates and (obviously) outlived the Sears. For those of you who might not know, Millbourne is actually its own town (well, a borough since this is PA) in DelCo, not a part of Upper Darby at all. Weird boundaries, too: Market Street and Cobbs Creek. I always assumed having a station here was something of a courtesy.

Now this is interesting! I'll have to look them up and check out their history.

edit-holy crap-millbourne is majority asain?! How the hell did that happen? Amazing demographics for being between philly and upper darby.

[Jtom]

Believe me, buses are a hell of a lot slower than the el. And you never have to wait long for the el.

[OffenseTaken]

Now this is interesting! I'll have to look them up and check out their history.

edit-holy crap-millbourne is majority asain?! How the hell did that happen? Amazing demographics for being between philly and upper darby.

LIN, I've been worried sick. It's good to see you back.

Millbourne is almost all South Asian. I checked it out a few weeks ago while waiting for the R100; it's definitely got a Flushing kind of vibe, if you're familiar with Queens. Unfortunately, it's so small that there's apparently no big commercial strip with concentrations of Indian/Pakistani businesses, and that means no Ganesh parade, Bollywood festival etc. Which is a shame, because we TOTALLY need that.

[eldondre]

If you were building it new from scratch, I would see the point, but I am guessing there are enough bodies passing through that station that SEPTA would be killed for even talking about closing it.

when they were building it from scratch, the idea was that the SSL's would make the stops with the el making only a few stops, when the money ran out, they truncated the trolleys at juniper, and stopped the el more often. 12th st would provide more rational spacing and as hammer mentioned, would be RELATIVELY cheap but like many problems, I don't see how they could justify the expense when they still lack ada compliance at so many stations (among other problems). the benefit of closing one station, then, probably isn't worth the hassle so, as you point out, you have a setup that isn't ideal and not how'd you'd plan it, but there it is, and the cost of changing it isn't worthwhile. it makes up for the stops on the west side of market though.
cc buses are maddeningly slow. it isn't even the stops, traffic on chestnut is awful. chestnut and walnut are the last streets I'd put a bus at rush hour. and if I have any complaints about the el it's the awful headways off peak, particularly at night.

[Scoats]

I think every one is missing an upside to those extra stops down town. It disperses the number of people getting on/off per station.

If any downtown stations were combined, there would be twice as many people getting on/off at one time. Time saving would be negligible and it would make entering/exiting harder.

[eldondre]

I think every one is missing an upside to those extra stops down town. It disperses the number of people getting on/off per station.

If any downtown stations were combined, there would be twice as many people getting on/off at one time. Time saving would be negligible and it would make entering/exiting harder.

I'm not sure that's a real problem on the el. you're right though, time savings would probably be smaller than power savings.

[seand]

LIN, I've been worried sick. It's good to see you back.

Millbourne is almost all South Asian. I checked it out a few weeks ago while waiting for the R100; it's definitely got a Flushing kind of vibe, if you're familiar with Queens. Unfortunately, it's so small that there's apparently no big commercial strip with concentrations of Indian/Pakistani businesses, and that means no Ganesh parade, Bollywood festival etc. Which is a shame, because we TOTALLY need that.

I believe I read its the highest concectration of Sikhs specifically, in the US. What Dearbourne is to Muslims, Milbourne is to Sikhs. There are other South Asians as well, of course.

[hammersklavier]

Skip-stop (the A/B service) exists mainly to speed up peak trains on the Frankford El, which is somewhat longer, and has more stops than, the Market St. El. It also manages crowding along this portion of the line.

The problem with 11th/13th is that 11th is much, much busier than 13th, but 13th has the trolley connection; the one at 15th isn't really feasible, requiring traversing the BSL platform to get there. 30th is better for it, but the trolley is already crowded there. Merging the stations, as I'm talking about, is certainly reasonable and feasible; retains the Gallery, Convention Center, Gayborhood, Macy's, etc. connections; and is very, very doable since I'm pretty sure the space between the pedestrian corridor and train has already been excavated and is used for storage. The time saving is minor, but will be noticeable at peak. We're looking at a good long-term plan here.

Much greater impact comes from a Market West station, but it's much more expensive.

There are questions about the Frankford El. It was built in the '80s and so would naturally need renovation in the next 20 years or so, but IIRC there have been concerns about the mode of construction causing a greater-than-expected amount of spalling, etc. which would push the renovation timeframe up, and possibly even require reconstruction of the whole viaduct. In any event, ADA access is clearly needed along the whole construction*.
__________
* Frankly I'm surprised such access wasn't already programmed in for granny carts, strollers, and the like, esp. given what the function of the El is.

[eldondre]

hopefully they don't make the same mistake they just made on the western portion, not burying it but rebuilding it as it's running that ultimately resulted in little cost savings, operational and rider headaches, and you still have an elevated rattling outside the windows of what buildings are left.

[raider.adam]

hopefully they don't make the same mistake they just made on the western portion, not burying it but rebuilding it as it's running that ultimately resulted in little cost savings, operational and rider headaches, and you still have an elevated rattling outside the windows of what buildings are left.

After just coming back from vacation and a couple days in Downtown Chicago, it is safe to say an elevated line doesn't have to be the deciding factor of ruining a neighborhood.

I agree with your position that putting it underground likely saves money on maintenance in the long term scheme of things, but I don't think an elevated line is the cause for the blight.

[eldondre]

After just coming back from vacation and a couple days in Downtown Chicago, it is safe to say an elevated line doesn't have to be the deciding factor of ruining a neighborhood.

I agree with your position that putting it underground likely saves money on maintenance in the long term scheme of things, but I don't think an elevated line is the cause for the blight.

if demand is high enough, people will live next to an el as they do in ny, but make no mistake, it's a depressing factor on real estate values (it's just not the only factor) and people don't WANT to live next to it. the el in chicago is a bit different. if you wanted to, you could demolish all the buildings along the path of the el and set them back further to minimize the impact. ; )

[chris123678]

Despite all the facts that you guys have posted, nobody has seem to thought that the stations were to close?
2 block spacing is crazy.
That's were A/B service would be great when it comes to situations such as these.
And Yes, the el is faster than the bus, but it could be even faster if we didn't have so many stations to stop at.
As I've said earlier, A/B service is uselss to the people of The Market Street Part of the line since only Millbourne and 63rd Street are the only A/B stations.
Also, The Frankford line has less stops than the Market Street section.

[raider.adam]

Despite all the facts that you guys have posted, nobody has seem to thought that the stations were to close?

I just don't think anyone else thinks it is a big deal.

[Bean Counter]

Combining 11th and 13th stops to 12th St. doesn't make any sense to me. How much time do you think you would be saving? It's a one minute time difference these stops. Some prefer to see 100's of millions spent to eliminate probably 30 seconds or less from your commute. But when you factor in the amount of people that will be boarding/unboarding at the 12th St. stop now you are saving, what.... 20 seconds? But now you will have to walk an extra block to 11th or 13th, if this is your destination, and add time to your commute. 11th street stop has direct access into the Gallery and right through to the Regional rail lines.

For those talking about eliminating 8th must never use that station. As a daily user, I will tell you this stop serves as a transfer for those getting on PATCO and the BSL-Ridge-Spur line. This is a handicap accessible option for those needing to get on the BSL from the EL but can't transfer at City Hall.

[eldondre]

Combining 11th and 13th stops to 12th St. doesn't make any sense to me. How much time do you think you would be saving? It's a one minute time difference these stops. Some prefer to see 100's of millions spent to eliminate probably 30 seconds or less from your commute. But when you factor in the amount of people that will be boarding/unboarding at the 12th St. stop now you are saving, what.... 20 seconds? But now you will have to walk an extra block to 11th or 13th, if this is your destination, and add time to your commute. 11th street stop has direct access into the Gallery and right through to the Regional rail lines.

I think the implication is that it would not cost 100's of millions (and there's no reason to think it would since adding a west market stop would cost that much and it involves far more work). As noted, it makes sense from a stopping pattern issue. the savings would probably be mostly energy related rather than time related. the reality is, you could only walk an extra half block. 12th st would also have direct access to the gallery and, more importantly, regional rail lines.

[Bean Counter]

I think the implication is that it would not cost 100's of millions (and there's no reason to think it would since adding a west market stop would cost that much and it involves far more work). As noted, it makes sense from a stopping pattern issue. the savings would probably be mostly energy related rather than time related. the reality is, you could only walk an extra half block. 12th st would also have direct access to the gallery and, more importantly, regional rail lines.

I certainly think it would cost at least 100 million and not sure where that money would even come from.

[eldondre]

I certainly think it would cost at least 100 million and not sure where that money would even come from.

I don't know if it would even cost that, we're only talking platforms for a very short stretch of space, some of which may already be excavated. I don't think it should be done, even if it's $10 million, that's two ADA stations.

[raider.adam]

I don't know if it would even cost that, we're only talking platforms for a very short stretch of space, some of which may already be excavated. I don't think it should be done, even if it's $10 million, that's two ADA stations.

Right. For the cost of retrofitting, you could add instead.