The end of an era

[billy ross]

Last runs for SEPTA Silverliner II & III rail cars

Who are the Feds to force railcars into retirement because they don't meet handicapped requirements? The ADA law is a representation of enormous federal overreach, and it has caused the waste of a tremendous amount of infrastructure before its time.

[Marquis]

I blame the unions.

[hammersklavier]

The cars were 50+ years old, though. Very little rail equipment can be expected to last that long.

[billy ross]

The cars were 50+ years old, though. Very little rail equipment can be expected to last that long.

No, they're not even 50 years old yet. And your sentiment is nonsense. Clearly you haven't visited the Garden District in New Orleans, or maybe even taken the trolley by the Zoo in Philadelphia. The 'new' K-car trolleys in Philly are already over half the age you give, and they show no signs of failing, and the Broad Street Subway, which opened in 1928, is on its second set of cars - they, too, show zero signs of getting tired. We were in Lisbon, Portugal in March and they run some pretty old electric trolleys there, too. They become tourist attractions, if you let them hang around long enough.

Meanwhile, I stopped by the Roberts Yard today and I was aghast to see that the supply of old SII's and SIII's there seems to be dwindling. Where is SEPTA putting the retired II's and III's? The II's are the prototype that was eventually developed into the Amfleet series of cars. They're cool cars. I'm hoping that they keep a good number of them around, just in case the V's have some fatal flaw we don't know about yet that forces them to be taken out of service while a fix is put in. Remember the problems Amtrak had with the brakes on the Acela's? I wouldn't at all be surprised to find out about teething troubles with the SV's.

[Dayman]

Last runs for SEPTA Silverliner II & III rail cars

Who are the Feds to force railcars into retirement because they don't meet handicapped requirements? The ADA law is a representation of enormous federal overreach, and it has caused the waste of a tremendous amount of infrastructure before its time.

But it's still the law. That's why.

[Jayfar]

Where is SEPTA putting the retired II's and III's?

Per the article at the top of the thread: "SEPTA is selling its old Silverliners to a Newark scrap dealer for about $2300 each."

[billy ross]

Per the article at the top of the thread: "SEPTA is selling its old Silverliners to a Newark scrap dealer for about $2300 each."

It didn't say it was happening this week, nor did it indicate that SEPTA is getting rid of more than the broken-down cars. At $2,300 each they can afford to hold onto thrm a few years as an insurance policy - thats not even 1% of the cost of their replacements. I don't get rid of things that have given good service for 45 years to replace them with pigs in pokes. I'll run them side by side until I know the idiosyncrasies of the new stuff. Eventually you get rid of the old stuff, but not after you mothball it for awhile. That's exactly why the USS New Jersey and the USS Olympia and the USS Constitution are all still around. They were all supposedly junk at one point. Sadly, though, CV-5 USSEnterprise is forever gone because nitwits were in a rush to scrap it. You don't junk something the moment it's replacement comes online. The Ford Mustang is still going strong. The Ford Probe went the way of it's Japanese cousins. Sometimes you've
got to think long-term. Sometimes the replacement doesn't even outlast the original. Just look at Penn Station in New York, or the Philadlphia Stock Exchange locally.

[NE19149]

Ahhh...
I still enjoy the rich tonal quality of the 1963 RCA Victor console stereo in my dining room.
Built to last.

Toss it out you say?

Whatever for?

[opie]

Billy the real problem from what I understand the main reason for getting rid of the Silverliners because of crash worthiness. It has something to do with using stainless in the frames, you would think it would be stronger, but it some how it is bad in wrecks. If your interested this has been talked to death over on Railroad.net, go over there and do a search and you find out more than you will ever want to know. Nationaly cars like the Silverliners were suposed to be phased out awhile ago but the FRA gave SEPTA an extension. Another problem with them being very old is that no longer make parts for them, SEPTA was having to pay for expensive frabrication of custom parts to keep them running. Has for saving them for later use, keeping mechencal stuff ready to put to back in future use, requires preventive maintenance, which cost money. If you spend a grand a year to keep the cars ready this adds up.

[CComMack]

Per the article at the top of the thread: "SEPTA is selling its old Silverliners to a Newark scrap dealer for about $2300 each."

The Inquirer messed that detail up; there's a digit missing from that figure.

[lemko]

I doubt very much these Hyundai-Rotem cars will last remotely as long as those old Budd Silverliner cars. We used to make such awesome things in this city at one time.

[NE19149]

I doubt very much these Hyundai-Rotem cars will last remotely as long as those old Budd Silverliner cars. We used to make such awesome things in this city at one time.

You can say THAT again!

Now all those types of jobs are a memory - those types of products are too.
Left with namby-pamby jobs making gourmet cookies, and importing asian-made crapola from walmart.

[Volanova]

No, they're not even 50 years old yet. And your sentiment is nonsense. Clearly you haven't visited the Garden District in New Orleans, or maybe even taken the trolley by the Zoo in Philadelphia. The 'new' K-car trolleys in Philly are already over half the age you give, and they show no signs of failing, and the Broad Street Subway, which opened in 1928, is on its second set of cars - they, too, show zero signs of getting tired. We were in Lisbon, Portugal in March and they run some pretty old electric trolleys there, too. They become tourist attractions, if you let them hang around long enough.

Meanwhile, I stopped by the Roberts Yard today and I was aghast to see that the supply of old SII's and SIII's there seems to be dwindling. Where is SEPTA putting the retired II's and III's? The II's are the prototype that was eventually developed into the Amfleet series of cars. They're cool cars. I'm hoping that they keep a good number of them around, just in case the V's have some fatal flaw we don't know about yet that forces them to be taken out of service while a fix is put in. Remember the problems Amtrak had with the brakes on the Acela's? I wouldn't at all be surprised to find out about teething troubles with the SV's.

The SLIIs and IIIs were built in the 60s, so they're pushing 50, with some being older.

If SEPTA had really wanted to keep them around, however, they could have for some time. They could have latched them on to SLIV consists for peak hour trains, and since the SLIVs are ADA compliant, they could have bypassed the ADA rules. I'm not sure why they decided to get rid of them before all SLVs are in service, however, the biggest reason that I can determine is that they were beginning to become serious maintenance headaches. Any parts that broke had to be either salvaged from the dwindling number of retired cars, or machined in house from scratch. The companies and factories that built these trains were closed down years ago, so there isn't any factory supply of new parts any more.

It's sort of like the problem facing the USAF with the B-52. They want more of them, but they can't have them, because the machinery for constructing the wing spars was dismantled years ago, and the cost of constructing a new assembly line would far outweigh the benefit.

[NickFromGtown]

While I agree with the ADA in principle, the fact is that it is simply too far-reaching. It's had the effect of essentially making modernization of infrastructure prohibitively expensive without subsidies, which in turn has led to leaving much of it to crumble.

Couldn't some kind of compromise been made? Especially with subways, it's made things so hard to renovate.

[MariusPontmercy]

While I agree with the ADA in principle, the fact is that it is simply too far-reaching. It's had the effect of essentially making modernization of infrastructure prohibitively expensive without subsidies, which in turn has led to leaving much of it to crumble.

Couldn't some kind of compromise been made? Especially with subways, it's made things so hard to renovate.

It is ridiculous. It means transit agencies spend hundreds of millions to make the system ADA compliant for the benefit of very few individuals who already have redundant service like the SEPTA connect buses. That's the problem: its well meaning but it ultimately makes the costs of updating infrastructure so prohibitive that nobody ends up benefiting in the end if things are left to fall apart.

[mixiboi]

While I agree with the ADA in principle, the fact is that it is simply too far-reaching. It's had the effect of essentially making modernization of infrastructure prohibitively expensive without subsidies, which in turn has led to leaving much of it to crumble.

Couldn't some kind of compromise been made? Especially with subways, it's made things so hard to renovate.

No compromise, equal is equal....That is the activist groups motto is, especially when they block the EL from leaving a station as protest...

[hammersklavier]

No, they're not even 50 years old yet. And your sentiment is nonsense. Clearly you haven't visited the Garden District in New Orleans, or maybe even taken the trolley by the Zoo in Philadelphia. The 'new' K-car trolleys in Philly are already over half the age you give, and they show no signs of failing, and the Broad Street Subway, which opened in 1928, is on its second set of cars - they, too, show zero signs of getting tired. We were in Lisbon, Portugal in March and they run some pretty old electric trolleys there, too. They become tourist attractions, if you let them hang around long enough.

Meanwhile, I stopped by the Roberts Yard today and I was aghast to see that the supply of old SII's and SIII's there seems to be dwindling. Where is SEPTA putting the retired II's and III's? The II's are the prototype that was eventually developed into the Amfleet series of cars. They're cool cars. I'm hoping that they keep a good number of them around, just in case the V's have some fatal flaw we don't know about yet that forces them to be taken out of service while a fix is put in. Remember the problems Amtrak had with the brakes on the Acela's? I wouldn't at all be surprised to find out about teething troubles with the SV's.

Billy--SIIs and IIIs were produced c. 1960-70, mostly in the earlier half of that decade. So, yes, the cars are 50 years old, or very close to it.

Secondly, you're not taking into account the maintenance on these things. Yes, they were built by Budd (and St. Louis...) and have a deserved reputation for quality, but equipment of that age simply can't keep going on. Do you know how hard it is to find parts for a car when the builder isn't even around anymore? San Francisco's Muni has to scour eBay for PCC parts, for crying out loud! SEPTA mechanics have been cannibalizing parts of the fleet for a decade or more now, just to get the parts they need.

Even in the golden age of railroading, equipment rarely hung around 50 years or more...it just didn't happen.

[Volanova]

Billy--SIIs and IIIs were produced c. 1960-70, mostly in the earlier half of that decade. So, yes, the cars are 50 years old, or very close to it.

Secondly, you're not taking into account the maintenance on these things. Yes, they were built by Budd (and St. Louis...) and have a deserved reputation for quality, but equipment of that age simply can't keep going on. Do you know how hard it is to find parts for a car when the builder isn't even around anymore? San Francisco's Muni has to scour eBay for PCC parts, for crying out loud! SEPTA mechanics have been cannibalizing parts of the fleet for a decade or more now, just to get the parts they need.

Even in the golden age of railroading, equipment rarely hung around 50 years or more...it just didn't happen.

Especially in commuter service. Long distance equipment can last longer due to the very fact that it doesn't undergo the strain of going from 0 to 80 to 0 miles per hour every mile it's on the tracks. It's quite impressive and a testament to their design that they've achieved this kind of longevity. Hard daily use in Philadelphia's climate for 50+ years is simply incredible.