Could Free Fare Tansit work in Philly?

[raider.adam]

getting the stadium authority to pay for rides is making the system better and more useful. if three people pay cash fare it's $12, parking is $15. if they only pay one way, it's $6, perhaps worth going out of the way for.
I don't buy the general fund argument one bit unless you can guarantee it went to good use...but I know you can't. if they could tie it to a specific project like making one more bsl stop ada accessible that would be better. anyway, of course how septa spends the money is relevant, you can't have it both ways adam. at pattison, yes, I think discounted fares would be a very good thing. it should generate more daytime parking revenue for the stadium authority, more riders to games and the douchebag magnet, and counters the multirider problem. there are countless worse ways to spend the money.

So since we can't guarantee proper use of money at SEPTA, we should just stop funding it totally then. Reductio ad absurdum.

ridership is the system. it's a false choice between free rides at pattison and e.coli.

And what pays for the infrastructure? Wishes and dreams?

[eldondre]

So since we can't guarantee proper use of money at SEPTA, we should just stop funding it totally then. Reductio ad absurdum.
And what pays for the infrastructure? Wishes and dreams?

no offense but the amount of money it takes to fund operations at one station isn't going to solve any infrastructure issues. you're just being obstinate no doubt. where's your proof that they used the money for infrastructure?
In addition to finding corp sponsors for free fares in Pittsburgh, they also found people to provide matching donations to improve the materials and design of the stations themselves. While Pittsburgh's transit system is lacking, perhaps we need to look at what they're doing with so little to learn a little here instead of just being against new ideas and encouraging ridership.

[raider.adam]

no offense but the amount of money it takes to fund operations at one station isn't going to solve any infrastructure issues. you're just being obstinate no doubt. where's your proof that they used the money for infrastructure?

I don't knwo what they spend the money on. I am saying they SHOULD.

To put the whole discussion simply, do you think SEPTA needs more money?

As for the statement about me rejecting ideas just because they are new, that is just plain absurd.

[eldondre]

I don't knwo what they spend the money on. I am saying they SHOULD.
To put the whole discussion simply, do you think SEPTA needs more money?
As for the statement about me rejecting ideas just because they are new, that is just plain absurd.

I think having pattison a free fare station makes a lot of sense. it's only free one way, not that many people live nearby, it cuts the cost of multiple riders (I'd guess that pattison has more multiple riders than your average commuter stop), it helps alleviate congestion, promotes use of the acres of parking as park n rides, and has the possibility of finding a corp sponsor that would benefit from the service. personally, rather than the stadium authority, they should have given septa rights to parking revenue and development and shared the revenue with them rather than expecting users to pay for the service.
in this thread you've been knee jerk anti-new ideas period.

[raider.adam]

in this thread you've been knee jerk anti-new ideas period.

No, I have just not agreed with your position and I listed reasons. Your position is "make it free and it will all work out". It is odd for someone who is hard core pro transit and talk about all the things you want SEPTA to do and yet you are holding on the position that new revenue for SEPTA is a bad thing and instead they should cut fares.

[eldondre]

No, I have just not agreed with your position and I listed reasons. Your position is "make it free and it will all work out". It is odd for someone who is hard core pro transit and talk about all the things you want SEPTA to do and yet you are holding on the position that new revenue for SEPTA is a bad thing and instead they should cut fares.

no, you just posted a knee jerk diatribe...and your new posting is complete nonsense. I never said such things but yes, pricing is too high in some cases. it's not a profitable business...they don't capture all the benefit of their services, there's no reason why it would be wrong to ask for sponsors from people who do benefit from their services (and receive millions in subsidies). you are unwilling to even entertain new ideas and were quick to squash any idea that came about under the guise "septa needs more revenue." please show where I said make it free and it will all work out. i suggested that making pattison station was a good idea, you provided no real reason why it was not, except that septa shouldn't worry about moving more people and only worry about "revenue" for the general fund. septa is a large organization and should be capable of doing more than one thing at once, though the sheer longevity of the spring garden station project make me wonder.

[FKD19124]

and if you dont need Septa?

I like the idea, but the $400 million must come form somewhere. maybe the city can put a $300 or so tax on everyone in the city, and give them free rides.

[BarryG]

, while I feel like this may be too nakedly self-interested, I would add that outside of game times, I've never been on a truly crowded Broad Street Line train, and suggest that pulling fare collection off all the stations north of Vine or south of Locust or South might be worth exploring. (And if that causes service cuts to the 2, 4, 16, and/or the 23 south of Erie, I'll take that tradeoff.)

Rush hour trains are packed. Free rides on the weekend would be an interesting experiment to increase ridership, but the riff-raff it would bring into stations and on to trains would probably end up turning off riders.

anyway while weekend BSL ridership is low, it's not horrible; free rides could easily necessitate more trains, which would be expensive.

[mixiboi]

The BSL weekend ridership is low because people don't have anywhere to go on the line on the weekends.

FREE rides wont change that.

[eldondre]

The BSL weekend ridership is low because people don't have anywhere to go on the line on the weekends.

FREE rides wont change that.

thats not entirely true. The headways are terrible..sometimes worse than the bus. The crosstown connections are awful. Its almost like septa doesnt want you to ride. A reduction in headways is probably more important than free...though i thinkp attison could work as the riff raff factor might be at a minimum there

[mixiboi]

That also true, no ridge spur and express and the weekend, on top of the local being every 30 mins, why would you want to go downtown?

But it does go back to demand...

[eldondre]

That also true, no ridge spur and express and the weekend, on top of the local being every 30 mins, why would you want to go downtown?

But it does go back to demand...

and supply. not saying that demand is there to run every four min, but it's every 12 min after 8 pm on saturday, that's worse than baltimore. is 8-10 min and buses timed to meet trains to much to ask?

[BarryG]

The BSL weekend ridership is low because people don't have anywhere to go on the line on the weekends.

FREE rides wont change that.

I disagree, there are still people living in BSL accessible areas that for whatever reason don't see the BSL as a safe or convenient way to get into Center City. A free ride could persuade them to try. obviously there is plenty to do downtown on the weekends.

I actually don't have a big problem with 15 minute headways on the weekend but the connecting bus headways and alignments are terrible.

[eldondre]

I disagree, there are still people living in BSL accessible areas that for whatever reason don't see the BSL as a safe or convenient way to get into Center City. A free ride could persuade them to try. obviously there is plenty to do downtown on the weekends.

I actually don't have a big problem with 15 minute headways on the weekend but the connecting bus headways and alignments are terrible.

the headways are also important, why walk a few blocks to catch a subway when the bus comes every 20 min? waiting around in an empty bsl station for 15 min is a real turnoff for casual riders. the fact that they will likely get dumped off just after the bus connection leaves (should they be catching one) only adds insult to injury. even if they ran "extra" service between erie and Snyder only based on demand it would help...even if it comes at the expense of some of the buses. perhaps rather than free, $1 (to keep the bums off).
there is also excess capacity on weekdays as well (at least on the four track main to olney where service is more frequent than south philly)

[Sean]

the headways are also important, why walk a few blocks to catch a subway when the bus comes every 20 min? waiting around in an empty bsl station for 15 min is a real turnoff for casual riders. the fact that they will likely get dumped off just after the bus connection leaves (should they be catching one) only adds insult to injury. even if they ran "extra" service between erie and Snyder only based on demand it would help...even if it comes at the expense of some of the buses. perhaps rather than free, $1 (to keep the bums off).
there is also excess capacity on weekdays as well (at least on the four track main to olney where service is more frequent than south philly)

I've often thought about the timing for connections. I often take the BSS to the El and there is nothing done there to coordinate connections (which I imagine would be easiest). But even if you were to coordinate the connections, which line would get priority? Should the El arrive first, allow 5 min for everyone making the connection to the BSS to get to the platform before the next BSS train arrives or should it be the other way? Same goes for busses. Should the priority be given to people going from bus to train or the other way around? I think the most unreasonable option would be to have both arrive at the same time and force people to run to make it or wait the 20 min for the next one.

Of course I'm talking off peak here as at peak times everything I've used runs often enough that it is a non-issue.

[eldondre]

I've often thought about the timing for connections. I often take the BSS to the El and there is nothing done there to coordinate connections (which I imagine would be easiest). But even if you were to coordinate the connections, which line would get priority? Should the El arrive first, allow 5 min for everyone making the connection to the BSS to get to the platform before the next BSS train arrives or should it be the other way? Same goes for busses. Should the priority be given to people going from bus to train or the other way around? I think the most unreasonable option would be to have both arrive at the same time and force people to run to make it or wait the 20 min for the next one.

Of course I'm talking off peak here as at peak times everything I've used runs often enough that it is a non-issue.

why not have them split. for example, if both are running every ten minutes, the BSL at 8, the el at 8:05, bsl at 810, el at 815, etc. the buses can be scheduled around the subway (and the subways around the city hall meets). for example the 55 bus shouldn't be scheduled to drop you off the exact minute (or one minute before) the subway leaves--maybe it should wait until it is notified the subway has arrived, wait five minutes, and leave. the crosstown should be scheduled to arrive a few minutes after. more refined decisions would require actual ridership data. sometimes trains run late because septa operators will hold off peak trains for riders, in part, because headways are poor.
I think off peak is where the changes are needed most, septa does a decent job at rush hour (though big picture I think they rely too heavily on one seat bus rides and not enough on rail to bus. if the 33 is always sro, maybe it should be more expensive to take than bsl to 60 rather than vice versa.). however, the timed connections problem is definitely an off peak problem where missing your connection is a big deal and where connections appear to be more poorly timed. as I was riding the train from jenkintown, I couldn't help but notice that most people had paper tickets. perhaps at the margin, it's off peak that matters the most to incremental revenue. they appeared to be carrying a substantial number of people who didn't prepay, so the assets they have to serve the monthlies for commuting purposes were earning incremental revenue.

[raider.adam]

It gets annoying walking from the BSL to the MFL to see the MFL pull away just as you come around the corner. I think your idea about them splitting in the middle makes sense.

[Sean]

It gets annoying walking from the BSL to the MFL to see the MFL pull away just as you come around the corner. I think your idea about them splitting in the middle makes sense.

Splitting the middle makes sense during peak times, but what I'm specifically worried about is the off-peak times. The riders on whichever is second to arrive miss out and have to wait for almost the entire duration of the headway for the next vehicle.

[eldondre]

Splitting the middle makes sense during peak times, but what I'm specifically worried about is the off-peak times. The riders on whichever is second to arrive miss out and have to wait for almost the entire duration of the headway for the next vehicle.

huh? why would that be? the problem is when your train arrives at, say: 8:09 and the el leaves at 8:10 am. if NB/SB both arrive at 8 pm while EB/WB trains are scheduled to arrive at 8:05, no one has a long wait. everyone is scheduled to have the average wait.

still can't believe we have 15 min headways on subways, seems pretty nutty. that's the source of the scheduling problem though now that I think about it, the bsl runs every 12 sat night, the el runs every 15. hell with that kind of slack on the el you could add a short run, say 2nd st to 30th st, back and forth.
tdoay, I'm hanging out at alla spina, and catch the 11:58pm sb train to city hall, I transfer to catch the el to my apt in old city...but I arrive at city hall at 12:01 am, 1 minute after the 12 am EB train, so it takes me two minutes to get to the platform...I stand there for 12 minutes until the 12:15 am train. if the train arrived at, say, 12:06 my trip home would be cut from 22 min (plus walking) to 13 min...and make no mistake, that 12 minutes on the platform feels like 24-30 min....easily enough time to sway the decision in favor of taking cab. (the schedule works the same in the other direction).

[raider.adam]

Splitting the middle makes sense during peak times, but what I'm specifically worried about is the off-peak times. The riders on whichever is second to arrive miss out and have to wait for almost the entire duration of the headway for the next vehicle.

How so? The one that is second to arrive is also half way to the next interchange. Neither one is first or second. They are simply mixed.


Say 20 minute headways (for arguments sake) on the MFL and BSL.

BSL shows up at City Hall at 9:00. MFL shows up at 9:10. BSL 9:20. MFL 9:30.