The Centennial District Transportation Center is Coming!

[Volanova]

Are the weeds park and rec territory or is street dept liable for that? serious question, i don't know.

I don't have a reasonable expectation of the parks dept to do anything whole-assed in Philadelphia given that they have virtually no funding. But since the Zoo is apparently flush enough (which is city funded, i'd remind you) to drop bills on a shiny parking garage, you'd think they could spend 100 bucks to have a couple of kenzos cut the grass around the Letitia house.

Some weeds in front of the convention center just looks sloppy. The trash-strewn hobo paradise (ie fairmount park) and collapsing buildings surrounding the zoo, which is one of (if not the) top tourist attractions in the city, is disgraceful.

According to the Fairmount Park site it's "Waiting for someone to adopt it." In other words, they're wanting to foist off responsibility for maintaining it to someone else.

With it's location though I could see it being a great visitor center/tourist information center, sort of a first stop for tourists coming from the west, especially if the city made an attempt to clean up Girard for a couple hundred yards on either side by laying down some new sidewalks, trimming the trees, adding some bicycle lanes connecting with the trails in the park, etc.

[thoth]

I don't understand why they've had such a hard time doing anything with it. Sheesh, if they're having such difficulty, lease it to someone for a dollar and let them live in it on the condition they do repairs. Not ideal, but it's a ****ing disgrace in its current state.

According to the Fairmount Park site it's "Waiting for someone to adopt it." In other words, they're wanting to foist off responsibility for maintaining it to someone else.

With it's location though I could see it being a great visitor center/tourist information center, sort of a first stop for tourists coming from the west, especially if the city made an attempt to clean up Girard for a couple hundred yards on either side by laying down some new sidewalks, trimming the trees, adding some bicycle lanes connecting with the trails in the park, etc.

[eldondre]

Exactly. It'd be nice to have a station near Girard, but it's not going to happen there. The 52nd Street station is more likely to re-open than a Zoo station.

its also more important in terms of benefit. The zoo area is dangerous on a bike.

[billy ross]

Dreamers:

Phila. Zoo planning new parking garage to make facility more accessible - Philly.com

As the guy at the Newark airport said when he was told that there was simply no way that trains could stop at Newark Liberty Airport: "Well, the trains have brakes, don't they?" The rest is history - Amtrak is now so sold on stopping at airports that they now fantasize about stopping at PHL. Of course the trains should stop at that incredibly busy node (the zoo, which was meant to be accessed by train and boat, not by car, which is an awful way of taking kids to the zoo. Even Disney knows that you move kids and even enormous numbers of adults on trains and boats and not in individual cars, which they store remotely). Why are we even debating this?

[Volanova]

As the guy at the Newark airport said when he was told that there was simply no way that trains could stop at Newark Liberty Airport: "Well, the trains have brakes, don't they?" The rest is history - Amtrak is now so sold on stopping at airports that they now fantasize about stopping at PHL. Of course the trains should stop at that incredibly busy node (the zoo, which was meant to be accessed by train and boat, not by car, which is an awful way of taking kids to the zoo. Even Disney knows that you move kids and even enormous numbers of adults on trains and boats and not in individual cars, which they store remotely). Why are we even debating this?

The problem is a little different at the zoo than it is at EWR. EWR does not lie in the middle of one of the single busiest interlockings in the country. Literally every Amtrak passenger train in the nation, as well as every single SEPTA train, utilizes it in some form or fashion, as well as numerous freight operations. It would be like putting a stop where the upper level and lower level tracks split for 30th Street Station. You would have to lay new sidings on each side of the rails just to allow trains to stop there without getting a huge amount of backup and problems with routing and scheduling to do it, as well as build overpasses or underpasses to allow pedestrians to access one side or the other. This simply is not worth it. It would be nice, but building a stop at the zoo is not like building a stop to connect the rail system to one of the busiest international airports in the world.

[billy ross]

Add a siding on each side of the NEC then to effect this, and build a bridge to connect the platforms. Neither would be deal killers.

The problem with zoo interlocking is that they're trying to do too much in too compressed a space right now, even without a stop there. No one can deny that it's dysfunctional. The solution isn't to deny a common sense stop. The solution is to remove some of what they're presently trying to do with zoo interlocking. Zoo interlocking needs to be reengineered from start to finish, with a stop in it when all is said and done. The status quo sucks all around. It needs to be fixed. What are we talking about? Three or at most four miles of four track, say two miles on the main and one on the branch?it's a mess right now. An embarrassment. 15mph on the NEC? You've got to be kidding me. And for what purpose? To put in endless sequences of redundant turnouts. Pull out most of the turnouts and replace them with straight track. While you're at it add in 4 turnouts, two for each new platform you add in for the new stop. One to get you to the new station, one to get you back on the 4 track main. Just make sure the trains that stop at zoo are on the appropriate track well before they get to zoo. while you're at it set up the center tracks for express routing. The outside tracks would be for lower priority trains, and they'd have most of the remaining turnouts. I don't see what's so hard about this.

The problem is a little different at the zoo than it is at EWR. EWR does not lie in the middle of one of the single busiest interlockings in the country. Literally every Amtrak passenger train in the nation, as well as every single SEPTA train, utilizes it in some form or fashion, as well as numerous freight operations. It would be like putting a stop where the upper level and lower level tracks split for 30th Street Station. You would have to lay new sidings on each side of the rails just to allow trains to stop there without getting a huge amount of backup and problems with routing and scheduling to do it, as well as build overpasses or underpasses to allow pedestrians to access one side or the other. This simply is not worth it. It would be nice, but building a stop at the zoo is not like building a stop to connect the rail system to one of the busiest international airports in the world.

[mixiboi]

The outside tracks would be for lower priority trains, and they'd have most of the remaining turnouts. I don't see what's so hard about this.

Well besides the whole thing needs to be redone anyway....

[mixiboi]

Still going forward:

Finally, the Commission reviewed a proposed Mural Arts work that will adorn one side of a new transit center now underway at the Zoo. (This garage and its attendant issues has been making the rounds for quite some time now.)

Muralist Euhri Jones' illustrations showed a whimsical romp — inspired, she said, both by the garage's ramps and by the Zoo's own overhead "trails" — of wild animals nestled against a backdrop of patterns that resemble iconic skins (zebra, leopard, etc) and interspersed with graphic representations of the native vegetation used at the Zoo.

She also explained that in crafting her design, she had considered that the primary view of the work would be from the window of Septa trains.

Several commissioners wondered if the mural was packed with too much detail — Commissioner Robert Nix even called it "noisy" — that would be missed in the blur a not-so-speeding locomotive. Later, he suggested that perhaps some animals and flowers could be rendered in differing scales so the overall effect would not be so "monotonous."

Buffington countered that the work "wasn't meant to be a narrative" and praised it as "handsome" and "highly contextual." A separate discussion concerned whether the graphic should more totally cover the surface (as presented, it includes a few breaks in the image to accommodate vents and other openings in the facade) or even other facades of the structure.

Art Commission grants final approval to Mormon Temple | PlanPhilly: Planning Philadelphia's Future

[MarketStEl]

The problem is a little different at the zoo than it is at EWR. EWR does not lie in the middle of one of the single busiest interlockings in the country. Literally every Amtrak passenger train in the nation, as well as every single SEPTA train, utilizes it in some form or fashion, as well as numerous freight operations.

Oh, dear.

Oh, dear, dear.

I usually don't get all Grammar Police on anyone, but when someone who has a strong, firm and clear command of the language commits the "Literally" Misuse Violation, I must register my dismay.

Now back to the main topic.

If there was a station here up through 1947, and Zoo Interlocking was no less complex back then - if anything, it was an even more complex junction with the New York and Pittsburgh Subway and a couple of other underpasses in use, and I suspect that no fewer trains went through it then than now - what is the problem with adding one back now?

I suspect that the R8 service is still "viable" as it is now without a stop at the Zoo and that the long headways on weekends are, as eldondre argued, more a matter of cost savings than one of lack of demand. The cutback from 60-minute to 90-minute headways took place during the era of the Annual Going-Out-of-Business Sale.

And I too am curious about why the Municipal Art Commission apparently at best grudgingly tolerates the Mural Arts Program. Granted, a lot of its murals are nothing to write home about, but when they're good, they're excellent.

[Volanova]

Oh, dear.

Oh, dear, dear.

I usually don't get all Grammar Police on anyone, but when someone who has a strong, firm and clear command of the language commits the "Literally" Misuse Violation, I must register my dismay.

Now back to the main topic.

Eek, my apologies, if I recall correctly I intended to say "in the northeast" not "the nation." Which, I believe, would be correct, right?

[Jayfar]

Officials working to restore rail passenger service to Philly Zoo

Paul Nussbaum, Inquirer Staff Writer
POSTED: Tuesday, April 2, 2013, 5:42 AM
After 100 years of watching trains pass without stopping, Philadelphia Zoo officials are trying to restore passenger rail service to the zoo.

A new study proposes a SEPTA station at 34th Street and Mantua Avenue, a short walk from the zoo's south entrance.

Although the zoo was built on its West Philadelphia site in 1874 partly because of handy rail access, the original Zoological Garden station at 34th Street and Girard Avenue closed in 1902, a victim of Pennsylvania Railroad expansion.

Now, congested highway access and limited parking have convinced zoo leaders that a new train station would increase attendance and ease traffic.

Kenneth Woodson, the zoo's vice president of community and government affairs, said the zoo would "pursue aggressively" a new train station.

A new station, with rail platforms, elevators and stairways, and requisite environmental work and track relocation, could cost about $60 million, said architect Robert P. Thomas, an author of the new rail feasibility study for the zoo.

Thomas and other planners also looked at putting the train station by the zoo's main entrance on 34th and Girard, where the original station was. But that could cost about $200 million because of the challenges of trying to build amid the converging Amtrak and SEPTA rail lines there, he said.

[snip]

[eldondre]

if this project gets fundes ahead of jenkintown sub, bidirectional signalling from thorndale to paoli, reconfifuring zoo. (saving 7 million riders 5 minutes ), or the cc bridgesmy head is going to pop which may make some support this project.
id suggest an alternate plan of adding a station to the main at girard ave which would allow a direct transfer to the trolley. and what of the cultural corridor? im sorry no seasonal service is worth. $60 million.

[NickFromGtown]

if this project gets fundes ahead of jenkintown sub, bidirectional signalling from thorndale to paoli, reconfifuring zoo. (saving 7 million riders 5 minutes ), or the cc bridgesmy head is going to pop which may make some support this project.
id suggest an alternate plan of adding a station to the main at girard ave which would allow a direct transfer to the trolley. and what of the cultural corridor? im sorry no seasonal service is worth. $60 million.

I guess there are two choices here: 1) Girard Ave or 2) Mantua Ave. Girard Ave is probably the best in terms of making out system more intermodal and connecting to Fairmount Park West. Mantua Ave makes sense since it can give Mantua better transit options.

Drawbacks here seem obvious. Girard Ave is hard to do and doesn't connect much regular transit traffic. If Mantua Ave is meant to serve the Zoo, it's on the wrong end of the Zoo and too far away. Unless Amtrak's pipe dream happens and we could "transit-ize" what would be legacy Northeast Corridor assets, I don't know how feasible these plans are.

[eldondre]

I guess there are two choices here: 1) Girard Ave or 2) Mantua Ave. Girard Ave is probably the best in terms of making out system more intermodal and connecting to Fairmount Park West. Mantua Ave makes sense since it can give Mantua better transit options.

Drawbacks here seem obvious. Girard Ave is hard to do and doesn't connect much regular transit traffic. If Mantua Ave is meant to serve the Zoo, it's on the wrong end of the Zoo and too far away. Unless Amtrak's pipe dream happens and we could "transit-ize" what would be legacy Northeast Corridor assets, I don't know how feasible these plans are.

actually I was thinking the main which is near 9th and girard. it would require a transfer but the 15 is a useful service and a station at 9th and girard would allow transfers to the main for other users, perhaps for fox chase, c hill east, and the west trenton lines could stop there. it would also allow transfers to the 15 for sugarhouse, northern liberties, etc. the zoo's just in a tough spot for rail access, as the article hints, the PRR dropped it a long time ago because of its location in a busy area. to complicate matters, the two tracks closest to the zoo are the one's amtrak uses for it's nec service. the city would be better backing the 52nd st station project IMO which would require zoo to overbrook to be reconfigured first but once that's done, adding platforms should be relatively simple.
if I'm not mistaken, the proposed station would only be useful for trenton line users. I'd think for reverse commute purposes you'd want the paoli line. I'd think it would be a good bit less than $60 million to add tracks to ridge ave and have a trolley run from the zoo to the reading terminal via ridge and 11/12th streets. or maybe it would be $60 million but you'd at least have a new service. and how does this fit in with "cultural corridor plans?" per the other thread, this is the problem with transit. it's not run by people interested in moving people but by politics.

[Jayfar]

if I'm not mistaken, the proposed station would only be useful for trenton line users. I'd think for reverse commute purposes you'd want the paoli line.

From the article:
"As envisioned by the planners, a zoo station at 34th and Mantua would have platforms for trains operating on the Paoli/Thorndale, Trenton, Chestnut Hill West, and Cynwyd lines."

[eldondre]

From the article:
"As envisioned by the planners, a zoo station at 34th and Mantua would have platforms for trains operating on the Paoli/Thorndale, Trenton, Chestnut Hill West, and Cynwyd lines."

so it's in the center which would explain the cost. the $200 million figure likely include track reconfiguration. the project, then, would likely sink or swim based on ridership projections for the paoli/thorndale line and is the best of all possible "zoo stations." I still can't see this being a good use of $60 million on the transportation system but it would undoubtedly be a modest boost to mantua. a girard ave stop would be feasible at belmont and girard. just for good measure, $60 millino would upgrade every interlocking from parkesburg to paoli, fix the bridges in cc, replace the jenkintown substation, most of the money needed to finish the wawa extension, make every station not named city hall on the BSL ADA compliant, and is more than the entire amount spent on the park system.

[NickFromGtown]

actually I was thinking the main which is near 9th and girard. it would require a transfer but the 15 is a useful service and a station at 9th and girard would allow transfers to the main for other users, perhaps for fox chase, c hill east, and the west trenton lines could stop there. it would also allow transfers to the 15 for sugarhouse, northern liberties, etc. the zoo's just in a tough spot for rail access, as the article hints, the PRR dropped it a long time ago because of its location in a busy area. to complicate matters, the two tracks closest to the zoo are the one's amtrak uses for it's nec service. the city would be better backing the 52nd st station project IMO which would require zoo to overbrook to be reconfigured first but once that's done, adding platforms should be relatively simple.
if I'm not mistaken, the proposed station would only be useful for trenton line users. I'd think for reverse commute purposes you'd want the paoli line. I'd think it would be a good bit less than $60 million to add tracks to ridge ave and have a trolley run from the zoo to the reading terminal via ridge and 11/12th streets. or maybe it would be $60 million but you'd at least have a new service. and how does this fit in with "cultural corridor plans?" per the other thread, this is the problem with transit. it's not run by people interested in moving people but by politics.

I think that putting a Regional Rail stop back at Girard certainly makes sense and I'd suggest adding a station at Spring Garden too. We could keep the really far routes in express service through this zone, but shorter (and mostly city) lines could be used. We could use CHE, NOR, and FOX. Who knows, why not finally get the Swampoodle Connection done and CHW could provide that local service too.

I'm all for the "transit-ization" of Regional Rail. One of Philadelphia's biggest weaknesses is the lack of rapid transit coverage. I think that the S-Bahn (Regional Rail) in Germany provides a great template for how we can use existing Regional Rail assets to expand rail transit. When you get to central areas in German cities, the S-Bahn works in almost the same way as the U-Bahn (metro). It is a fantastic supplement.

The issue with using the old Reading main is that it's not far enough from the Broad Street Line. We can'd do too much about that though. The right-of-way is where it is and we might as well leverage what we can.

[eldondre]

I think that putting a Regional Rail stop back at Girard certainly makes sense and I'd suggest adding a station at Spring Garden too. We could keep the really far routes in express service through this zone, but shorter (and mostly city) lines could be used. We could use CHE, NOR, and FOX. Who knows, why not finally get the Swampoodle Connection done and CHW could provide that local service too.

I'm all for the "transit-ization" of Regional Rail. One of Philadelphia's biggest weaknesses is the lack of rapid transit coverage. I think that the S-Bahn (Regional Rail) in Germany provides a great template for how we can use existing Regional Rail assets to expand rail transit. When you get to central areas in German cities, the S-Bahn works in almost the same way as the U-Bahn (metro). It is a fantastic supplement.

The issue with using the old Reading main is that it's not far enough from the Broad Street Line. We can'd do too much about that though. The right-of-way is where it is and we might as well leverage what we can.

I'm not really for the transitization of regional rail as a whole (the system as a whole is a poor fit but OTOH, I don't think that it shouldn't provide any "transit" type service). You just need to add what works where it works. spring garden is likely out because that's where it enters the commuter tunnel. I've thought about a fairmount station (and that too could work) but girard seems to offer more connections. going the other way, belmont-girard is also more accessible than mantua though if I were going to add a station in the city, I think it would be 52nd st which offers connections to the 10 and the 52 (both very well ridden high frequency routes) as well as walking distance to the mann. the paoli line carries a lot of people so slowing trains down for just a few people is probably not the right direction either (and then there's the keystone corridor). one thing that would be nice is a transfer to CHE from the bsl at north broad. I believe that will be possible once wayne jct is done but I'm not sure. remember, we spent $110 million to restore trolley service for zoo patrons. Fox Chase, perhaps, should stop at logan but the biggest issue there is the indirect routing and slow speed of SEPTA's interlockings on the main. anyway, we're not germany, and expanding the network is perhaps more important than transitizing it. adding places like bethlehem, newtown, west chester, phoenixville, pottstown, reading, lebanon, hersey, williamsport, chambersburg are all useful. putting regional service in the "commuter tunnel" would provide utility as well. at any rate, I think the system needs improvements targeted at repair or useful expansion, I'm not sure this qualifies as either.

[NickFromGtown]

I'm not really for the transitization of regional rail as a whole (the system as a whole is a poor fit but OTOH, I don't think that it shouldn't provide any "transit" type service). You just need to add what works where it works. spring garden is likely out because that's where it enters the commuter tunnel. I've thought about a fairmount station (and that too could work) but girard seems to offer more connections. going the other way, belmont-girard is also more accessible than mantua though if I were going to add a station in the city, I think it would be 52nd st which offers connections to the 10 and the 52 (both very well ridden high frequency routes) as well as walking distance to the mann. the paoli line carries a lot of people so slowing trains down for just a few people is probably not the right direction either (and then there's the keystone corridor). one thing that would be nice is a transfer to CHE from the bsl at north broad. I believe that will be possible once wayne jct is done but I'm not sure. remember, we spent $110 million to restore trolley service for zoo patrons. Fox Chase, perhaps, should stop at logan but the biggest issue there is the indirect routing and slow speed of SEPTA's interlockings on the main. anyway, we're not germany, and expanding the network is perhaps more important than transitizing it. adding places like bethlehem, newtown, west chester, phoenixville, pottstown, reading, lebanon, hersey, williamsport, chambersburg are all useful. putting regional service in the "commuter tunnel" would provide utility as well. at any rate, I think the system needs improvements targeted at repair or useful expansion, I'm not sure this qualifies as either.

Well, of course not. But some lines make a great deal of sense for CHE, CHW, NOR, and FOX. We can't take a one-size-fits-all approach.

What is the benefit of expanding service so far out? I understand West Chester and Newtown, but any farther than that seems questionable to me. Who will use these services to Bethlehem, Hershey, Williamsport, and Chambersburg? For one, will connections be fast enough to be used regularly? Second, I think that train towns make sense to discourage sprawl within the suburbs, but I don't like the idea of taking efforts that may take away from strengthening the core of the region which is Philadelphia and its immediate suburbs.

[eldondre]

Well, of course not. But some lines make a great deal of sense for CHE, CHW, NOR, and FOX. We can't take a one-size-fits-all approach. What is the benefit of expanding service so far out? I understand West Chester and Newtown, but any farther than that seems questionable to me. Who will use these services to Bethlehem, Hershey, Williamsport, and Chambersburg? For one, will connections be fast enough to be used regularly? Second, I think that train towns make sense to discourage sprawl within the suburbs, but I don't like the idea of taking efforts that may take away from strengthening the core of the region which is Philadelphia and its immediate suburbs.

people will use these services just as people use the keystone service to harrisburg. day trippers, family members, overnight visitors, etc. Expanding service doesn't take away from the core, it adds to it and this is something I think Philadelphia really doesn't get (but NY does). the larger the region you are the center for, the better it is for your city and connections play a large role in where people travel.those service could all serve 30th st or the stations or it could serve more convenient locations. you used to be able to travel to newark, bethlehem, reading, etc from wayne junction, 9th and green, etc. it just makes those stations more useful to live near. the fact is the road system is already causing the sprawl and there are reasons to live near highway exits. it would be one thing if the highway system ended at lansdale and thorndale, etc but it doesn't.it doesn't have to be septa service, it could be amtrak/penndot but that's besides the point. nonetheless, adding west chester, pville, and newtown should be a priority. the further out ones should probably be penndot. what if you coudl catch the train to sands casino in bethlehem or bethlehem musikfest from germantown? wayne junction to lancaster? market east to williamsport? heck, pittsburgh to temple?