SEPTA Delays Smart Card again

[eldondre]

My favorite has to be the subway stops that don't sell tokens with booths that cannot make change or take credit cards. So if you don't have any cash on you, you need to 1) find an ATM and 2) find somewhere to give you change (and likely have to buy something) before you can even pay for the subway.

I never understood what was so complicated about token machines that took credit or at least debit cards. and if SEPTA can have a pass only faregate in north philly, why not elsewhere?

And I know my fellow rail riders will not like this I am saying, but SEPTA CAN'T delay this system anymore...Im annoyed right now that I can't get on the train without a ticket or cash. I don't have a station that sells tickets and I don't carry cash on me..EVER.

So this system would make my life easier.....So 2014 or bust!

their regional rail plans are pretty dubious...septa isn't known for great decision making so a lot of people are nervous. they often think reinventing the wheel is good, even if they end up with an oval

[BarryG]

I can't tell you how many times I have had to hit the CVS across the street from the Girard-Broad stop just so I can break a $5 bill to use the subway.

Are you sure that CVS doesn't sell tokens? Most do.

[BarryG]

I never understood what was so complicated about token machines that took credit or at least debit cards. and if SEPTA can have a pass only faregate in north philly, why not elsewhere?

Couple things, 1) the token machines need to be wired into a network or phone line somehow, incurring cost. They have been laying fiber down the whole subway system, I think that's almost done.

2) the token machines themselves are expensive to purchase, modify, and repair because there are very few agencies still using tokens. Part of the problem I think is that NPT of some sort has always been "imminent" so investing capital money into new token machines didn't make sense if you actually believe that. All of this goes back to SEPTA's lack of a permanent capital budget, which makes smart long term planning difficult.

[MarketStEl]

They're still wondering what the big deal is about POP being unworkable for Philadelphia in response to my Facebook post announcing the award.

From what I've read about their proposed system, though, at least they have put in something that will let them capture as much of the money they would have left on the table under their original scheme as possible (I'm speaking here about riders traveling between two stations outside Center City).

But if the riders can be trusted to tag in and tag out on platform-mounted transponders, then what indeed was the big hangup over POP? The transponders will cost money to install, too, as will the hand-held scanners, and the readers on the platforms will be just as vulnerable to vandalism or damage. And why again the need for turnstiles in the central stations? Just install banks of transponders in the waiting areas and on the platforms.

And as for the trust part, they will in all likelihood have to implement a system where there is some sort of negative reinforcement for not tagging in or out, such as a $200 "fare" like that charged for traveling the River Line without a validated ticket. How will the conductors be able to tell whether a rider has tagged in or out easily?

[eldondre]

Couple things, 1) the token machines need to be wired into a network or phone line somehow, incurring cost. They have been laying fiber down the whole subway system, I think that's almost done.

2) the token machines themselves are expensive to purchase, modify, and repair because there are very few agencies still using tokens. Part of the problem I think is that NPT of some sort has always been "imminent" so investing capital money into new token machines didn't make sense if you actually believe that. All of this goes back to SEPTA's lack of a permanent capital budget, which makes smart long term planning difficult.

so there was no phone line in the booths? I'm not sure how expensive the token machines would have been. sure, it's basically us and toronto, but really, in the scheme of things, it's probably not a large costs. seems like they just wanted people to pay cash fare which is higher. oddly, they tried to discourage people from using cash recently with the fare changes but it's actually increased. the problem for fares has really been for casual riders, those of us using passes know that there's nothing fundamentally wrong with them. it's the adam's of the world that use it once in a while that bore the brunt of antiquity. even setting aside token machines, SEPTA's habit of using check cashin agencies rather than convenience stores is shortsighted. most stations have some sort of convenience store nearby. I gues sometimes I forget how poorly run the agency was under faye moore...we should be thankful she's gone.

[Gladys]

i don't get it. metro card in ny works why can't they just get the same system down here?

[raider.adam]

Are you sure that CVS doesn't sell tokens? Most do.

Yes. The nearest token place to the stop is half a block down girard Ave in the check cashing place (east of broad).

i don't get it. metro card in ny works why can't they just get the same system down here?

The idea is that if they are putting a new system in, they want it to be current tech so updating the fare system isn't a recurring project.

[BarryG]

so there was no phone line in the booths? I'm not sure how expensive the token machines would have been. sure, it's basically us and toronto, but really, in the scheme of things, it's probably not a large costs. seems like they just wanted people to pay cash fare which is higher. oddly, they tried to discourage people from using cash recently with the fare changes but it's actually increased. the problem for fares has really been for casual riders, those of us using passes know that there's nothing fundamentally wrong with them. it's the adam's of the world that use it once in a while that bore the brunt of antiquity. even setting aside token machines, SEPTA's habit of using check cashin agencies rather than convenience stores is shortsighted. most stations have some sort of convenience store nearby. I gues sometimes I forget how poorly run the agency was under faye moore...we should be thankful she's gone.

Well the token machine would need a dedicated line. There is also something ****ed up with SEPTA's whole credit card arrangement, the credit card machines they use at ticket booths are slow and ancient. Whatever crappy contract they are locked into may also prevent them from getting a good rate on CC transactions from a machine, adding to the cost of selling tokens this way.

I don't think SEPTA likes cash or tokens but they (understandably) love passes. I don't think they try to discourage cash use, they kept base fare at $2 when it could have been $2.10 or something annoying. They make transfers annoying to encourage pass use, which is counterproductive for casual riders, a market SEPTA should be catering more to (and they are, to some degree) as a typical pass holder is married to the system without other good transportation options.

I agree that they handle token sales poorly given that they don't want to invest in machine. A lot of drug stores and grocery stores still sell them, but it seems newsstands have given up, and I assume it's SEPTA's fault somehow.

[mixiboi]

i don't get it. metro card in ny works why can't they just get the same system down here?

Tokens work too, why don't we keep them.


NYC MTA is going to be moving to this system too, we are just ahead of them. To just instal the MTA seven year old system would be going backwards, not forwards.


Plus with this new system, it will be much more flexible for everyone over time. Think about it, SEPTA can team up with Google....ITs going to be amazing...

[Garret]

Will Regional Rail trains still be fully-staffed with conductors? Or will it be reduced to a European-style spot-check for valid tickets?

[mixiboi]

Will Regional Rail trains still be fully-staffed with conductors? Or will it be reduced to a European-style spot-check for valid tickets?

The Regional Rail conductors and operators are their own union..what do you think?

[radiocolin]

Somehow PATCO has managed to have tag-out gates for 40 years, 35+ of which had a crappy implementation.

[eldondre]

The Regional Rail conductors and operators are their own union..what do you think?

what about ticket agents?
PATCO doesn't run a railroad

[mixiboi]

what about ticket agents?

You mean the people in the booths? I imagine they will become what they became in NYC, costumer service reps for the machines when people get confused..

Then this:

Voices That Must Be Heard: Keep the booths open: MTA plans to close token booths will hit Black and Latino neighborhoods hardest

Then this:

The Phantom Token Booth: MTA Cuts Station Agents - WNYC

MTA Ticket Booth Closing For Good

[MarketStEl]

Somehow PATCO has managed to have tag-out gates for 40 years, 35+ of which had a crappy implementation.

When the agency went with mag cards in 1969, the technology was pretty much state of the art.

BART's farecards were pretty much untested prior to that system adopting them.

[eldondre]

You mean the people in the booths? I imagine they will become what they became in NYC, costumer service reps for the machines when people get confused..

Then this:

Voices That Must Be Heard: Keep the booths open: MTA plans to close token booths will hit Black and Latino neighborhoods hardest

Then this:

The Phantom Token Booth: MTA Cuts Station Agents - WNYC

MTA Ticket Booth Closing For Good

no, I mean the ticket agents for regional rail

[mixiboi]

Yeah they like the booth workers will also over time be out of a job, see the last story to the similar ticket agents of MTA Regional Rail(Metro-North):

MTA Ticket Booth Closing For Good - Harrison, NY Patch

The Machine and online "toping up" of the contactless cards will replace them all....

[MarketStEl]

I'm going to pose the same questions that I posed on the Facebook DVARP group about the NPT implementation as I understand it is slated to proceed here.

So if:

--the conductors will get handheld RF card readers as part of the NPT implementation;

--there will be readers installed on the platforms at the outlying Regional Rail stations;

--everyone will be expected to tag in/out at an outlying reader;

then tell me again:

--why a proof-of-payment system was deemed too costly and inconvenient?

--why we need to bother with the turnstiles at all - why not just put readers on the Center City platforms too?

[eldondre]

sounds like a giant waste of money

[londoner]

So...any updates on this? According to the press release, it's a 3 year implementation plan. So by December 2014 we should have the entire system upgraded? It's now mid-way through 2012 and absolutely no word on phase 1?