SEPTA Delays Smart Card again

[jester]

I used to ride the RIVER Line quite a bit and I'd say that I saw the fare squad on about 1/3 of my trips. If SEPTA rehired all of their booth attendants to roam the system in teams checking for fare evaders (and the added level of system security that provides) it seems like the level of evasion would stay the same and SEPTA would probably be better off in the long run because they wouldn't be paying to purchase, operate and maintain turnstiles. The only caveat is that justice needs to be swift. None of this, "oh, i don't have ID but i'll give you a fake name and fake address". No ticket + No ID = central booking.

When I was in Zurich, I noticed that one of the ways they kept transit running on time was by using the honor system. Trams and trains had multiple points of entry without anything to validate payment. A person could feasibly cheat the system for a while, and I had a friend who didn't buy the appropriate card for a while. The thing is the fare squad finally caught up to her and the penalty was around 100 Swiss Francs. She never travels without the appropriate card anymore!

[eldondre]

Like in NYC, you get a card when you use cash/credit/debit(no more need for exact change). No info on if the machines that SEPTA will be giving RR conductors will dispense cards, but we can hope.

The card can be refilled online or at a machine and be used for up to one year(or so), so its much more useful then a bunch o recyclable paper ticket(that more times then not get left on the ground).


Or my personal favorite future currency, you can download the SEPTA App on your phone and use that for your casual rides. No card required.

last time I took LIRR to jamaica I didn't have to get a card so I'm not sure what you are referring to. the use of phones is great but the complete abolition of paper and cash for regional rail is extreme (and the sort of thing bureaucrats love I'm sure). the right answer is to allow people to act differently, then encourage them, but not force them. webster is exactly right, they're nickel and diming, and trying to control their existing passengers every move. webster, I understand that booth attendants will not be eliminated but become customer service agents as in DC. SEPTA has also been hesitant to embrace turnstyles that would allow you to enter/exit from unmanned faregates.

[mixiboi]

last time I took LIRR to jamaica I didn't have to get a card so I'm not sure what you are referring to.

I was talking about the Metro card. The LIRR is moving that way too, SEPTA just going to beat everyone in that department for once...

[eldondre]

I was talking about the Metro card. The LIRR is moving that way too, SEPTA just going to beat everyone in that department for once...

I think you've been drinking the kool aid. SEPTA isn't beating everyone to the punch for good reason, they haven't moved there yet because it doesn't make sense. just another ham fisted SEPTA project. here's a sensible approach
MBTA and Masabi team up for first smartphone rail ticketing system in the US, launching in Boston this fall - Engadget

how much is all this costing since off the shelf solutions that would have made more sense are available? meanwhile, they're struggling to find money for necessary upgrades.

[mixiboi]

Its more that SEPTA didn't upgrade to other systems like the other systems over the years then it not making any sense...

And that is a ok system, using QR codes, so 1977....Its a nice stop gap if you don't have the funds to upgrade(which is the real reason why they are doing that), but NFC is the next BIG step, which they will all move to eventually..Especially if VISA, Mastercard, Microsoft, Sprint, and Google have anything to say(which they do).

Which is why SEPTA is a head of everyone for the first time when it comes to payment tech, tho the regional rail system will be the more difficult part, but once they figure it out the others will copy and do better I'm sure.

[eldondre]

Its more that SEPTA didn't upgrade to other systems like the other systems over the years then it not making any sense...

no, it just doesn't make any sense. other railroads are not changing to this policy. it's not an upgrade, it's a change. we're only talking about the railroad, not the transit division.

Which is why SEPTA is a head of everyone for the first time when it comes to payment tech, tho the regional rail system will be the more difficult part, but once they figure it out the others will copy and do better I'm sure.

SEPTA is behind, as usual, on consideration for their customers. there is no real advantage to forcing all regional rail riders into the system which is why septa is not forecasting any savings. this is why DVARP gets no respect.
at the end of the day, it's an upgrade for transit and a silly waste of money for regional rail.

[BarryG]

no, it just doesn't make any sense. other railroads are not changing to this policy. it's not an upgrade, it's a change. we're only talking about the railroad, not the transit division.

SEPTA is behind, as usual, on consideration for their customers. there is no real advantage to forcing all regional rail riders into the system which is why septa is not forecasting any savings. this is why DVARP gets no respect.
at the end of the day, it's an upgrade for transit and a silly waste of money for regional rail.

Are you suggesting that RR should have a separate fare system from transit? There is tremendous value in having a single instrument that works for the entire system.

[mixiboi]

Actually the DVARP actually is on your side when it comes to this, they also feel the system(as it is currently) isn't a good fit for the Regional Rail System and they are trying their best to push SEPTA into a different direction.


I don't feel the same way(Note: Im not a DVARP member, tho they are a great group) as I don't see it as that much of an issue going forward. Seeing that the majority of RR riders are commuters who already buy Monthly/Weekly passes the new system doesn't change much for them, outside of the tapping in/out process. Hell the system makes it easier for them ,as they no longer have to wait in lines/wait for the mail) for their monthly/weekly transpass.

And on those that don't commute daily, well I'm one of those people, and I can not wait for the new system so I can stop having to wait in line downtown to get and stock up on tickets(And forget about getting one up here in the NW as there is no ticket office near me, with the closest in East Falls).

Until SEPTA revels the rest of the process, I can't speculate on how they deal with cash, but I doubt they will want to piss off the Flower Show grey hairs too much, so Im not too worried, I just glad SEPTA is moving forward on this, damn the issues.


And of course there are no savings, even if SEPTA went with the most modest system, the way things are going, we will be lucky if SEPTA doesn't have to dismantle the system.

[eldondre]

Actually the DVARP actually is on your side when it comes to this, they also feel the system(as it is currently) isn't a good fit for the Regional Rail System and they are trying their best to push SEPTA into a different direction.

sorry, I thought you were a spokesperson for them. glad to hear they have a sensible position on this.

I don't feel the same way as I don't see it as that much of an issue going forward. Seeing that the majority of RR riders are commuters who already buy Monthly/Weekly passes the new system doesn't change much for them, outside of the tapping in/out process. Hell the system makes it easier for them ,as they no longer have to wait in lines/wait for the mail) for their monthly/weekly transpass

which is why SEPTA's proposed system is just plain silly. commuters ALREADY have a good system (except that they have to buy passes on a monthly basis which is only due to SEPTA policy there's no reason they couldn't sell an annual pass) so the money being spent here is on a small portion of the ridership, the portion SEPTA knows the least about serving. far better would have been the adoption of an eticketing platform which would have required little to no actual infrastructure and provided the necessary benefits.

And on those that don't commute daily, well I'm one of those people, and I can not wait for the new system so I can stop having to wait in line downtown to get and stock up on tickets(And forget about getting one up here in the NW as there is no ticket office near me, with the closest in East Falls).

exactly, that could have been accomplished for less money with a more sensible system. no gates, no stupid septa cards, no machines, just you and your phone or home computing device and a conductor with a scanner. end of story, period.

And of course there are no savings, even if SEPTA went with the most modest system, the way things are going, we will be lucky if SEPTA doesn't have to dismantle the system.

if there are no savings, then there's no need for septa's policies. as noted, a much cheaper off the shelf system (a la mbta or amtrak's extant system) would have worked. even today, POP would be perfectly fine except for SEPTA worrying about every last penny of revenue (overlooking every last dollar spent to capture it). meanwhile, those millions in debt issued to pay for the system could have gone to wayne jct sub or some other capital improvement that is far more crucial.

[mixiboi]

sorry, I thought you were a spokesperson for them. glad to hear they have a sensible position on this.

Oh no, they are much more sensible then I am

They just need more visibility and promotion(plugs)

DVARP Facebook Group

DVARP Facebook Page

DVARP Website

Plus they got a meeting for their future AD campaign for awareness on the need for public funding of public Transportation coming up this week on Wednesday which is really needed as SEPTA can't(or won't) do it....

[mixiboi]

We got a timeline! SEPTEMBER 2013 is the beginning tof the NPT!

http://septa.org/site/npt/images/npt-timeline.jpg

Im superexcited that cell phones and keyglobs are a part of the plan(With the end of Tokens, Tickets, and Transfers by 2015):



Here is the timeline for the Buses/Trolley/Subway(September 2013-April 2014) With Summer Pilots next summer!



and for the Regional Rails, Pilots begin Jan 2014 with full launch June 2014-December 2014:



More info is at that link including what is going to happen to all those booth jobs come 2015....

[Jtom]

We got a timeline! SEPTEMBER 2013 is the beginning tof the NPT!

http://septa.org/site/npt/images/npt-timeline.jpg

Im superexcited that cell phones and keyglobs are a part of the plan(With the end of Tokens, Tickets, and Transfers by 2015):



Here is the timeline for the Buses/Trolley/Subway(September 2013-April 2014) With Summer Pilots next summer!



and for the Regional Rails, Pilots begin Jan 2014 with full launch June 2014-December 2014:



More info is at that link including what is going to happen to all those booth jobs come 2015....

I still don't understand what's wrong with the current system. Why spend millions of dollars to change a system that works? Just so people can pay on their smartphones (which not everyone owns)? Complete waste of money.

[radiocolin]

I still don't understand what's wrong with the current system. Why spend millions of dollars to change a system that works? Just so people can pay on their smartphones (which not everyone owns)? Complete waste of money.

A complete lack of ticket vending machines, yet the existence of an onboard surcharge that you need to go to a ticket counter to get refunded.

No way to purchase a subway ride or group of subway rides with a credit or debit card without going to one of several inconveniently located locations (aka not the actual subway stop).

Cash-only token machines that give you a handful of tokens and nickels for a $20 bill.

Ticket agents who cannot sell you tokens and cannot make change.

The fact you have to carry a bunch of tokens around when every other transit system in America moved to smart cards in the 1990s.

The fact a transfer still requires cash and a punched piece of paper (see the previous statement about smart cards).

The SEPTA fare system does not work. It's outdated, inconvenient, hostile to residents and confusing to outsiders. It makes the city look backwards to anyone else in America.

[eldondre]

A complete lack of ticket vending machines, yet the existence of an onboard surcharge that you need to go to a ticket counter to get refunded.
No way to purchase a subway ride or group of subway rides with a credit or debit card without going to one of several inconveniently located locations (aka not the actual subway stop).
Cash-only token machines that give you a handful of tokens and nickels for a $20 bill.
Ticket agents who cannot sell you tokens and cannot make change.
The fact you have to carry a bunch of tokens around when every other transit system in America moved to smart cards in the 1990s.
The fact a transfer still requires cash and a punched piece of paper (see the previous statement about smart cards).
The SEPTA fare system does not work. It's outdated, inconvenient, hostile to residents and confusing to outsiders. It makes the city look backwards to anyone else in America.

I don't agree, most of these gripes are barriers SEPTA decided to implement...in other words, the system isn't outdated so much as its poorly run. in rome you can buy tickets all over the place, SEPTA is at fault for not making tokens readily available. the regional rail problem is particularly egregious, but why the OBS if there are no vending machines? this problem could have been solved much more cheaply with off the shelf technology rather than reinventing the wheel. transfers used to be free in Philadelphia, technology is not the reason why they aren't. toronto has tokens and plenty of riders. personally I think the amount of money being spent here is a waste ($130 million isn't chump change), particularly on regional rail, especially when physical improvements are in dire need. that said, on the transit side, there will be big improvements in data collection and interoperability between PATCO and SEPTA. there are o cost savings associated with this since the token system will be replaced with bank fees.

[PhilaCap]

Poor SEPTA. It's a shame the way they are crippled by their union.

[BarryG]

I don't agree, most of these gripes are barriers SEPTA decided to implement...in other words, the system isn't outdated so much as its poorly run. in rome you can buy tickets all over the place, SEPTA is at fault for not making tokens readily available. the regional rail problem is particularly egregious, but why the OBS if there are no vending machines? this problem could have been solved much more cheaply with off the shelf technology rather than reinventing the wheel. transfers used to be free in Philadelphia, technology is not the reason why they aren't. toronto has tokens and plenty of riders. personally I think the amount of money being spent here is a waste ($130 million isn't chump change), particularly on regional rail, especially when physical improvements are in dire need. that said, on the transit side, there will be big improvements in data collection and interoperability between PATCO and SEPTA. there are o cost savings associated with this since the token system will be replaced with bank fees.

This is correct but you keep saying there will be no cost savings because of the bank fees, do you have evidence of this? Surely there will be costs wit the new system, but the costs of maintaining a token- and paper-based system will continue to rise over the years. What would the cost be to install banks of credit card enabled token machines? Probably quite high because nobody manufactures them and it would need to be custom build for SEPTA. Costs to repair token sales and processing equipment also will continue to rise.

Data collection and fare flexibility from the new system are also very valuable. I agree with you about RR but there is a rider advantage to having a unified system and it does make sense to do it all at once, under a single contract.

[mixiboi]

Poor SEPTA. It's a shame the way they are crippled by their union.

If only it was the union. Having to rebuild a 100 year old system with very little funding doesn't help either..ask NYC's MTA or Chicago how they doing these days with their ancient systems...Its the one thing SEPTA is a head on them....

Data collection and fare flexibility from the new system are also very valuable. I agree with you about RR but there is a rider advantage to having a unified system and it does make sense to do it all at once, under a single contract.

The Regional Rail intigration is going to be the thing people will be fighting for months on, but anyone who thinks we should keep tokens till 2020 is insane.

[eldondre]

This is correct but you keep saying there will be no cost savings because of the bank fees, do you have evidence of this?

SEPTA has budgeted no savings, they haven't claimed savings, and those words are from a SEPTA employees mouth. you are free to believe otherwise.

Surely there will be costs wit the new system, but the costs of maintaining a token- and paper-based system will continue to rise over the years.

do you have any evidence of this? tokens are pretty sturdy...and probably don't cost a lot. bank fees are not inconsequential....if SEPTA really believed there were big savings to be had I think they would have been much more aggressive in eliminating tokens.

What would the cost be to install banks of credit card enabled token machines? Probably quite high because nobody manufactures them and it would need to be custom build for SEPTA. Costs to repair token sales and processing equipment also will continue to rise.

it's possible, but it's my understanding that the real problem has been that the back end network for such machines doesn't exist. Personally, I think if septa had gone with a more limited implementation to eliminate tokens on the subway lines (and kept the strip cards) it would have been much cheaper...and they could have kept going for federal funding for the rest. I also understand that the magnetic strip cards are fairly flexible but SEPTA never bothered to do much with them (weekend cards?)

Data collection and fare flexibility from the new system are also very valuable. I agree with you about RR but there is a rider advantage to having a unified system and it does make sense to do it all at once, under a single contract.

fare flexibility is overblown, SEPTA has made the system unnecessarily complicated and that seems to be the way they aim to run the new system. data is valuable, no doubt. cost effective? I don't know.

[eldondre]

The Regional Rail intigration is going to be the thing people will be fighting for months on, but anyone who thinks we should keep tokens till 2020 is insane.

ok george bush.
"so mixiboi have you brought your ROI analysis with you on NPT?
"No, you're insane if you don't agree with me, issue $130 million in debt"

not that I'm particularly fond of tokens nor am I convinced SEPTA should have kept them, but you're argument isn't very strong. as for rrd, I'd have preferred if they knocked 5 minutes off the ride to paoli, 2-3 minutes from every suburban-30th st trip, or upgraded interlockings and signal systems along the reading

[mixiboi]

This wasn't aimed at you Andre, but to those that are going to be stubborn till the end...

Changes to start soon for SEPTA ‘smart card’ system - Philly.com

SEPTA has hired a marketing firm to brand its new fare instrument with a name that will resonate - like London's Oyster card or Boston's Charlie Card or PATCO's Freedom Card.

Maybe we'll get the Liberty Card? Or the Philly Phare?

But anyway here some numbers:

386 new turnstiles
121 handicapped-accessible fare gates
1,852 fare boxes
200 vending machines
1.2 million smart-cards
13 million one-day magnetic-strip tickets.

and the funnest bit?

And those SEPTA cashiers who now sit in subway station booths, unable to make change or sell tokens? They are to be retrained as "customer attendants" to help riders buy and use the fare cards.

Aissia Richardson, chair of SEPTA's citizen advisory committee, said she believed that transformation could work.

"It's how you're trained. Currently," she said, "they're trained to say no. It can't be that hard to train them to say yes."