$27.2 million Wayne Junction reno a go?

**billy ross** · 01-21-2011, 09:03 AM

SEPTA plans to borrow $250 million for rail cars, station makeover | Philadelphia Inquirer | 01/21/2011

I am fine with SEPTA borrowing money - they seem to have very little debt. However, instead of pushing to rush the delivery of the SV's and then having to borrow in order to pay the bill, it seems to me that SEPTA should be rushing the new farecard system, and borrowing to pay for that. SEPTA could increase revenues, especially on Regional Rail, where many riders don't end up paying, and decrease labor expenses. Now that EZ Pass has been shown to be a roaring success, why can't SEPTA do a similar kind of thing? There's a pretty good chance that the better economics of the new system could cash flow the debt, plus they could fundraise around the expenses of the new fare system. Let the deliveries of the new Silverliners go at a more natural pace, as the operation gets up to speed.

Meanwhile, I'm super-excited to see Wayne Junction made pleasant. I have already seen some rehabs going on around there, to the point where we can now park one block away and feel comfortable leaving our car. As ridership builds around that station it'll snowball into liveliness, hopefully.

**eldondre** · 01-21-2011, 10:55 AM

Of the two, the renovation of wayne junction is less necessary. the cars are being produced and they need to be paid for. it's entirely possible that the new cars will lower maintenance costs. whether SEPTA can realize gains from the new farecard system is a tough question to answer since it likely involves changes to labor agreements, etc, though now would be a good time to force the issue with friends of labor out of power...I think this is a good example of why keeping debt levels low is a good thing, it allows you to issue debt when you really need it.

**Commuter** · 01-26-2011, 12:46 AM

$27 million for a station rehab? What crack is SEPTA smoking? Seriously!! That's alot of dough for one station. WJ needs an overhaul, but that's rediculous. Not to mention, its half the price of the much needed WJ substation.

This is crap, and I bet all we get out of it is crappy glass block shelters like SEPTA does everywhere else where you freeze your @ss off in the middle of winter. SEPTA is a toilet, and it just keeps on flushing.

**billy ross** · 01-26-2011, 07:13 AM

Originally Posted by Commuter

$27 million for a station rehab? What crack is SEPTA smoking? Seriously!! That's alot of dough for one station. WJ needs an overhaul, but that's rediculous. Not to mention, its half the price of the much needed WJ substation.

This is crap, and I bet all we get out of it is crappy glass block shelters like SEPTA does everywhere else where you freeze your @ss off in the middle of winter. SEPTA is a toilet, and it just keeps on flushing.

Check out the new Melrose Park Station. Septa believes in quality, at least on the regional rails. That's why they have cars still in service that are just shy of 50 years old, and why the backbone of the Regional Rail fleet is 34-37 years old, and still going strong, with nary a sign of tiredness. Wayne Junction will be gorgeous once this project is completed.

The recent Queen Lane Station re-do is considered by SEPTA to be a quick and dirty job, and it is stunning. I had to teach my kids to use paint stipple to determine the age of woodwork, that's how well SEPTA blended the old with the new at Queen Lane. Wayne Junction will be more thorough, with high level platforms. Has a final plan been reached for the old Furness station house? Will SEPTA be building a new building and sealing the old building? With the new platform heights I imagine that the Furness building will be at the wrong level now, but it would be a crime to demolish it. Maybe SEPTA has figured out a way of using ramps to keep the old station house in service rather than building a new one adjacent. Does anybody know?

**eldondre** · 01-26-2011, 07:48 AM

Originally Posted by billy ross

Check out the new Melrose Park Station. Septa believes in quality, at least on the regional rails. That's why they have cars still in service that are just shy of 50 years old, and why the backbone of the Regional Rail fleet is 34-37 years old, and still going strong, with nary a sign of tiredness. Wayne Junction will be gorgeous once this project is completed.

The recent Queen Lane Station re-do is considered by SEPTA to be a quick and dirty job, and it is stunning. I had to teach my kids to use paint stipple to determine the age of woodwork, that's how well SEPTA blended the old with the new at Queen Lane. Wayne Junction will be more thorough, with high level platforms. Has a final plan been reached for the old Furness station house? Will SEPTA be building a new building and sealing the old building? With the new platform heights I imagine that the Furness building will be at the wrong level now, but it would be a crime to demolish it. Maybe SEPTA has figured out a way of using ramps to keep the old station house in service rather than building a new one adjacent. Does anybody know?

SEPTA is neither as bad as most say they are nor as good as you say they are. they didn't order those old cars and the cars are showing signs of age with frequent breakdowns. SEPTA has been among the most conservative budgeters (a good thing) but Also among the bottom for OTP for regional rail. Queen lane is nice but it wasn't cheap either and wasn't quick and dirty as you say, nor have I ever seen septa refer to it that way. desolate has made the statement, I believe, that WJ has structural issues which may account for SEPTA issuing debt to proceed with this project before it falls down. IO can't answer your question on their plans but if you have the chance you could check out the renovated wilmington station which has the same platform issues (and is also a furness station)

**billy ross** · 01-26-2011, 07:51 AM

Originally Posted by eldondre

SEPTA is neither as bad as most say they are nor as good as you say they are. they didn't order those old cars and the cars are showing signs of age with frequent breakdowns. SEPTA has been among the most conservative budgeters (a good thing) but Also among the bottom for OTP for regional rail. Queen lane is nice but it wasn't cheap either and wasn't quick and dirty as you say, nor have I ever seen septa refer to it that way. desolate has made the statement, I believe, that WJ has structural issues which may account for SEPTA issuing debt to proceed with this project before it falls down. IO can't answer your question on their plans but if you have the chance you could check out the renovated wilmington station which has the same platform issues (and is also a furness station)

SEPTA ordered the IV's, and the IV's are from the mid-70s, but holding up much better than anything else from that era, including the buildings which were built during that era, and things like the Washington Metro. The rest of the world still hasn't caught up to the technology in the IV's, too. Regenerative braking in the 1970's? Wow.

Who paid for the Wilmington Station redo? Amtrak? Dart? SEPTA as funded by Dart? The last time I used the station it was being worked on, but it was nowhere near finished.

**eldondre** · 01-26-2011, 10:16 AM

Originally Posted by billy ross

SEPTA ordered the IV's, and the IV's are from the mid-70s, but holding up much better than anything else from that era, including the buildings which were built during that era, and things like the Washington Metro. The rest of the world still hasn't caught up to the technology in the IV's, too. Regenerative braking in the 1970's? Wow.

Who paid for the Wilmington Station redo? Amtrak? Dart? SEPTA as funded by Dart? The last time I used the station it was being worked on, but it was nowhere near finished.

Amtrak. I'm not a big fan of the interior "design" but it's definitely an improvement (don't expect wayne junction to look like that inside, for better or worse) but you can see how they dealt with the platform/station issue.
most of SEPTA's system was built well before the 70's. in metro's defense, it's run much harder than anything septa has. while I didn't follow that debacle to its conclusion, it seems likely they could have used septa's conservative budgeting. OTOH, headways on the bsl aren't nearly as close which makes it much easier to prevent accidents even with manual control. that's even more the case for regional rail. the rest of the world hasn't caught on? you are delusional on this one, and septa is issuing debt to acquire new cars because the old ones ARE breaking down. sure, if you put enough money into it, rail equipment can run forever..there are still original steam locomotives out there, but that doesn't make it a good use of money.

**eldondre** · 02-01-2011, 02:50 PM

City Selects Developer for Nicetown Redevelopment Stimulus Funds to Support Neighborhood Revitalization

PHILADELPHIA – Mayor Michael A. Nutter today announced the selection of a joint venture of Universal Community Homes and Nicetown Community Development Corporation as the developer for the 4400 block of Germantown Avenue. The $13.2 million development, which the city will support with $4 million in federal stimulus funds, will produce 40 units of affordable housing and 6,000 square feet of commercial space near the Wayne Junction train station.

“This development will not only bring housing and economic development to the 4400 block of Germantown Avenue, it is also another step in the revitalization of the Nicetown community,” said Mayor Nutter. “This development emphasizes Philadelphia’s ongoing commitment to create affordable housing and promote economic opportunity.”

The development, which Universal and Nicetown CDC proposed in response to a request for proposals issued by the Office of Housing and Community Development, will be called Nicetown Court II. It will include both housing and commercial space on both sides of the 4400 block of Germantown Avenue. Its location adjacent to the Wayne Junction train station will provide residents with access to the job centers located along the six train lines that stop at Wayne Junction.

Kenneth Gamble, world renowned music producer and co-founder of Universal Companies, said, “This development incorporates a holistic approach to community development that includes both real estate and economic development. We are proud to partner with Mayor Nutter and Councilwoman Miller to revitalize Nicetown.”

The federal stimulus funds will come from the Neighborhood Stabilization Program 2 (NSP2). The purpose of NSP is to stabilize neighborhoods with high levels of foreclosure, vacant housing and blight. A total of $43.9 million in NSP2 funds were made available to the city through a competitive application process.

“President Obama’s Recovery Act is making a difference in neighborhoods throughout Philadelphia,” said U.S. Congressman Chaka Fattah. “The stimulus is working – creating jobs, developing homes, revitalizing neighborhoods and leading us toward economic recovery.”

The development is one of a series of neighborhood revitalization projects that will enhance both public amenities and private property in the Nicetown section of the city near Wayne Junction. In September Universal and Nicetown CDC broke ground on Nicetown Court I, a 37-unit mixed-used development in the 4300 block of Germantown Avenue; the Redevelopment Authority has issued an RFP for NSP2-supported housing in the neighborhood; and SEPTA is planning a $29 million redevelopment of the historic Wayne Junction train station that includes a renovation of the station building and ticket house that promises to preserve the historic integrity of these buildings.

“This project is long overdue and will be transformative for this section of Germantown Avenue. The eighth Councilmanic district welcomes new, affordable housing, and I look forward to seeing Recovery dollars at work in the Nicetown community,” said Councilwoman Donna Reed Miller.

Nicetown Court II will be consistent with the Philadelphia City Planning Commission’s “Germantown and Nicetown Transit Oriented Plan.” It will fit within the context of the existing neighborhood and help to create a vibrant and walkable urban community.

Pending the award of Low Income Housing Tax Credits from the Pennsylvania Housing Finance Agency, construction on the development could begin in fall 2011 and be completed one year later.

Nicetown Court II is a mixed-use development of 40 affordable housing units and over 6,000 square feet of commercial space adjacent to the Wayne Junction train station in the 4400 block of Germantown Avenue. It will include eight 2-bedroom units in four duplexes, twelve 3-bedroom and twelve 4-bedroom single family homes, and eight 2-bedroom apartments. All residents will earn less than 60% of the area median income ($46,980 for a family of four). Four units will accessible for persons with mobility impairments and 36 units will be visitable.

press

**billy ross** · 02-01-2011, 03:03 PM

Originally Posted by eldondre

press

The station building and ticket house will be renovated in a way that promises to preserve the historic integrity of these buildings? That's great news.

I look forward to Wayne Junction becoming a busy, well-used, and safe train station. I'd love to be able to use that station more. It would even work great for going to Phillies games, if it were unscary.

**Commuter** · 02-04-2011, 01:26 AM

WASTE WASTE WASTE

Watch Wayne Junction wind up like North Philadelphia. Nice reno, then the locals will trash it. Its already happend at the new Olney Station. The ongoing fleecing of Philadelphia taxpayers.

**mixiboi** · 02-04-2011, 10:33 AM

Originally Posted by billy ross

The station building and ticket house will be renovated in a way that promises to preserve the historic integrity of these buildings? That's great news.

I look forward to Wayne Junction becoming a busy, well-used, and safe train station. I'd love to be able to use that station more. It would even work great for going to Phillies games, if it were unscary.

And a new Fare system would help push that station even more.

**eldondre** · 02-04-2011, 11:13 AM

Originally Posted by Commuter

WASTE WASTE WASTE

Watch Wayne Junction wind up like North Philadelphia. Nice reno, then the locals will trash it. Its already happend at the new Olney Station. The ongoing fleecing of Philadelphia taxpayers.

the olney subway station or regional rail station?

**thoth** · 02-04-2011, 04:21 PM

Neglecting municipal infrastructure out of spite should not be a strategy. If you're talking about the Olney BSL stop...that's one of the most heavily used in the city so you're going to get wear and tear no matter what. you still have to budget for maintenance.

Originally Posted by Commuter

WASTE WASTE WASTE

Watch Wayne Junction wind up like North Philadelphia. Nice reno, then the locals will trash it. Its already happend at the new Olney Station. The ongoing fleecing of Philadelphia taxpayers.

**billy ross** · 02-04-2011, 04:46 PM

Originally Posted by Commuter

WASTE WASTE WASTE

Watch Wayne Junction wind up like North Philadelphia. Nice reno, then the locals will trash it. Its already happend at the new Olney Station. The ongoing fleecing of Philadelphia taxpayers.

You don't think that the Blue Route has been trashed by the people that use that road? It's a constant battle to keep up with all of the debris there. Would you prefer that we just abandon Wayne Junction and commuter rail entirely and instead build the second deck on the Schuylkill Expressway, widen the arteries in Center City and even leading to the burbs, and add tens of thousands of parking garage spaces in Center City? Would that be less wasteful? What about when the price of gas goes up, or when the roads become unuseable for one reason or another? Having redundancy built into your transportation system is wise. When all of the flights were shut down after September 11, and again around this past Christmas due to the storms, the wisdom of upgrading Amtrak as much as we have became apparent, and the foolishness of not having done more to make Amtrak efficient also became more apparent.

**billy ross** · 02-06-2011, 02:45 PM

Originally Posted by Commuter

WASTE WASTE WASTE

Watch Wayne Junction wind up like North Philadelphia. Nice reno, then the locals will trash it. Its already happend at the new Olney Station. The ongoing fleecing of Philadelphia taxpayers.

I was speaking with a transportation planner regarding Wayne Junction, the one who did the Northeast Subway study way back when. He has been following obliquely the Wayne Junction redo. He tried to say that the area is dead, so that is bad. I pointed out that Drexel and also an expanding Center City will drive the 30th Street Station area redevelopment, while Temple and APM will drive the Temple U Station area redo. That leaves Wayne Junction as the candidate for Park and Ride. Hopefully there will eventually be an offramp from and to the Boulevard to feed traffic to parking at Wayne Junction and then Center City or other points. I don't know whether he agreed with me. There is no reason that Wayne Junction should be less busy than Jenkintown, in my opinion.

Anyway, he said that the main reason the Wayne Junction redo is so expensive is all of the engineering work, about $10 million of it. He was a little vague, but it sounds as if the confusing separate platforms for the R7 Chestnut Hill East will go away, by relocating the junction above the platforms. This will enable there to be two double loaded high level platforms for all trains, and it should increase safety / decrease creepiness and confusion. I'm looking forward to getting clarification on this. Since the one HLP is already in place (outbound), I wonder what changes will be made to that one.

**NickFromGtown** · 12-15-2011, 02:07 PM

Originally Posted by Commuter

WASTE WASTE WASTE

Watch Wayne Junction wind up like North Philadelphia. Nice reno, then the locals will trash it. Its already happend at the new Olney Station. The ongoing fleecing of Philadelphia taxpayers.

Wow, this is a hopelessly negatively opinion. People don't use Wayne Junction because it looks terrible and they feel unsafe. The station has in part drug down the entire area too. Redoing it is a necessary step. This area is nowhere as lost as people make it seem. Some of the blight has to go (e.g. those awful junk yards) and that will go a long way towards making good progress.

**thoth** · 12-15-2011, 06:35 PM

Originally Posted by NickFromGtown

Wow, this is a hopelessly negatively opinion. People don't use Wayne Junction because it looks terrible and they feel unsafe. The station has in part drug down the entire area too. Redoing it is a necessary step. This area is nowhere as lost as people make it seem. Some of the blight has to go (e.g. those awful junk yards) and that will go a long way towards making good progress.

The logic is retarded. Don't maintain public infrastructure because it might get damaged? Great plan, I think the city has been taking your advice for the last 60 years and it seems to have gotten us into a world of ****

**NickFromGtown** · 12-15-2011, 10:21 PM

Originally Posted by billy ross

I was speaking with a transportation planner regarding Wayne Junction, the one who did the Northeast Subway study way back when. He has been following obliquely the Wayne Junction redo. He tried to say that the area is dead, so that is bad. I pointed out that Drexel and also an expanding Center City will drive the 30th Street Station area redevelopment, while Temple and APM will drive the Temple U Station area redo. That leaves Wayne Junction as the candidate for Park and Ride. Hopefully there will eventually be an offramp from and to the Boulevard to feed traffic to parking at Wayne Junction and then Center City or other points. I don't know whether he agreed with me. There is no reason that Wayne Junction should be less busy than Jenkintown, in my opinion.

Anyway, he said that the main reason the Wayne Junction redo is so expensive is all of the engineering work, about $10 million of it. He was a little vague, but it sounds as if the confusing separate platforms for the R7 Chestnut Hill East will go away, by relocating the junction above the platforms. This will enable there to be two double loaded high level platforms for all trains, and it should increase safety / decrease creepiness and confusion. I'm looking forward to getting clarification on this. Since the one HLP is already in place (outbound), I wonder what changes will be made to that one.

Great, someone from SEPTA thinks that Wayne Junction is dead.

I've talked to people from SEPTA before. I've seen their body of work. I don't want to be too general, but overall they are not the most insightful or progressive people I have ever met. They are not very optimistic either. It's hard to blame them. Many are from the suburbs, of a different era, and put in the near impossible position that is called a quasi-governmental organization. They have many headwinds. It is what it is,

The funniest thing about Wayne Junction is that some of the best development in the city is being done in Nicetown just south of Wayne Junction on Germantown Ave. I'd be willing to bet the person you talked to from SEPTA would never have expected that. It's really quite incredible, yet there it is, no longer just an idea. It is being realized.

**billy ross** · 12-16-2011, 09:05 AM

Originally Posted by NickFromGtown

Great, someone from SEPTA thinks that Wayne Junction is dead.

I've talked to people from SEPTA before. I've seen their body of work. I don't want to be too general, but overall they are not the most insightful or progressive people I have ever met. They are not very optimistic either. It's hard to blame them. Many are from the suburbs, of a different era, and put in the near impossible position that is called a quasi-governmental organization. They have many headwinds. It is what it is,

The funniest thing about Wayne Junction is that some of the best development in the city is being done in Nicetown just south of Wayne Junction on Germantown Ave. I'd be willing to bet the person you talked to from SEPTA would never have expected that. It's really quite incredible, yet there it is, no longer just an idea. It is being realized.

I walked to Wayne Junction to go to a Christmas party on Thursday night of last week. It took me about 15 minutes from the Germantown Cricket Club. It wasn't scary at all until the last two blocks; that part of Germantown between the Cricket Club and Fernhill Park is healing nicely, and it always stayed fairly nice even during the days of disinvestment. It's just that now you can see many people investing into their homes, tending their gardens better, etc, all the signs that people like it there and that they care. I can see the last two blocks healing in, too, as Wayne Junction becomes more welcoming - it's already very useful. I also walked south of Wayne Junction to Broad Street a few months ago, and I agree that the new housing there is appealing; making the area south of Wayne Junction less scary will be helpful in increasing peoples' comfort levels about using that station. This of course is similar to the Queen Lane Station situation.

**NickFromGtown** · 12-20-2011, 10:58 AM

Originally Posted by billy ross

I walked to Wayne Junction to go to a Christmas party on Thursday night of last week. It took me about 15 minutes from the Germantown Cricket Club. It wasn't scary at all until the last two blocks; that part of Germantown between the Cricket Club and Fernhill Park is healing nicely, and it always stayed fairly nice even during the days of disinvestment. It's just that now you can see many people investing into their homes, tending their gardens better, etc, all the signs that people like it there and that they care. I can see the last two blocks healing in, too, as Wayne Junction becomes more welcoming - it's already very useful. I also walked south of Wayne Junction to Broad Street a few months ago, and I agree that the new housing there is appealing; making the area south of Wayne Junction less scary will be helpful in increasing peoples' comfort levels about using that station. This of course is similar to the Queen Lane Station situation.

I think you are too harsh on Queen Lane and too kind of Wayne Junction. Queen Lane was your typical rundown piece of public infrastructure in Philadelphia. Wayne Junction and the two blocks immediately surrounding it have looked like Berlin circa 1945. SEPTA plays a large part in this, as does whoever let a scrap operation operate next two one of the most used Regional Rail stations in the city. I know lots of people who travel through Wayne Junction and shudder each time they look out the window.

This brings up a greater problem. It's that of gateways into our city and neighborhoods. Off the top of my head, I can think of a multitude of awful gateways that really set people off on the wrong foot. Here are just a few: traveling by road from the Airport, the Northeast Corridor, Wayne Junction, Market East, entering Germantown via Wayne Ave, and entering Germantown via Belfield Ave. At least we'll be able to partially strike one of these off the list in the coming years.

I do agree with you that the area west of Wayne Ave in Southwest Germantown is pretty nice overall.