PHL airport expansion approved by FAA

[eldondre]

Are you really arguing that the Interstate system wasn't a multiplier for economic growth? It didn't cause huge economic growth, but the economic growth wouldn't have happened on the scale it did without it.

yes and no. the system as built wasted untold billions that created very little. the fact is, if the interstate highway act had never been passed, economic growth might have even surpassed what actually occurred. think about it...economic growth has strong when states and private entities ran the show, there's no reason to think that federal involvement did anything to improve upon that. it's a bs argument largely made by the state to justify itself. the schuylkill was built prior to the act as was the turnpike, and probably many other roads. the highway act DIRECTLY led to the bankrupting of thousands of railroads, led to the layoffs of many more people. it's an uncomfortable feeling when you realize that most of our core beliefs are BS but it's still true. there is no multiplier effect. the highway system, it's a redistribution effect.

How about the Erie Canal? How about the transcontinental railroads? How about the Pennsylvania Railroad?

the erie canal solved a real problem. how did the illinois canal do? exactly. the transcontinental railroads were abject failures that led to the bankruptcy of the builders and routes that largely had to be rebuilt with private dollars, though politically connected cronies did make out in the land grant program. the PRR buttresses my point, it solved problems, served customers, and existed before the highway act.

the rest of your post is irrelevant. what about 707's? are you proposing to invest in some new technology? no, you're talking about building another runway for existing technology. is one highway as useful as another? were all canals as successful as the erie? were all railroads successful? how many people lost money in the building of the railroads? quite a few.

[phillyaggie]

As I had mentioned in this thread a while ago, I thought I should update you folks on that point: U.S. Air has been talking with Americans' unions and has apparently cut a deal to gain their support: if they can buy American out of bankruptcy, then US Air will change its name to American and move its HQ to Ft. Worth, Texas. Currently it says it'll keep its hubs... but considering that USAir is fighting to keep PHL down, and considering that if it can buy American on the cheap out of bankruptcy it will gain the huge DFW operations, I'd think that ops at PHL will suffer either through benign neglect or in the name of gaining synergies. Either way, just goes to show that making the airport expansion should be based on Philly's own assessed needs and market aspirations rather than somehow be reliant on what USAir wants... sometimes, what's best for USAir might not be best for PHL or Philly, and sometimes the execs just want to screw over everyone in order to mint their own personal buck.

US Airways makes deals with 3 AMR unions - Yahoo! Finance

[raider.adam]

As I had mentioned in this thread a while ago, I thought I should update you folks on that point: U.S. Air has been talking with Americans' unions and has apparently cut a deal to gain their support: if they can buy American out of bankruptcy, then US Air will change its name to American and move its HQ to Ft. Worth, Texas. Currently it says it'll keep its hubs... but considering that USAir is fighting to keep PHL down, and considering that if it can buy American on the cheap out of bankruptcy it will gain the huge DFW operations, I'd think that ops at PHL will suffer either through benign neglect or in the name of gaining synergies. Either way, just goes to show that making the airport expansion should be based on Philly's own assessed needs and market aspirations rather than somehow be reliant on what USAir wants... sometimes, what's best for USAir might not be best for PHL or Philly, and sometimes the execs just want to screw over everyone in order to mint their own personal buck.

That might not be the correct thing to take away from it. If your one guess is accurate that they shift operations away from Philly, wouldn't that mean there is less of a need for a new runway?

[phillyaggie]

That might not be the correct thing to take away from it. If your one guess is accurate that they shift operations away from Philly, wouldn't that mean there is less of a need for a new runway?

there would be less of a need for USAir to use PHL's runways, true. But Philly's metro will still need a modern airport that serves a growing market of 5+ million consumers. If USAir leaves, someone else will surely want to serve this market. And consumers will want to come fly from Philly especially if NYC and D.C. airports are so busy.

i don't understand, however, why Philly has to be the owner/operator of the airport. Can't this service be privatized?-- That can help make the airport run more efficiently and lead to long term operational cost savings and better customer satisfaction. Although apparently PHL already ranks fairly high in the latter category (I seem to recall a survey result on that from last year).

[Juniataexile]

I said it earlier in this thread and I'll say it again: I think it's an overly optimistic assumption that airlines will rush to serve Philadelphia. Toronto's
Porter airlines are now going to Boston, NY, and DC, but not PHL. Qatar airlines, Boston, NY, and DC; not PHL.
Let's compare the number of foreign carriers at east coast airports:

JFK: 62
Dulles:26
Newark:18
Boston:14
Philadelphia:4
Baltimore:4

[eldondre]

there would be less of a need for USAir to use PHL's runways, true. But Philly's metro will still need a modern airport that serves a growing market of 5+ million consumers. If USAir leaves, someone else will surely want to serve this market. And consumers will want to come fly from Philly especially if NYC and D.C. airports are so busy.

i don't understand, however, why Philly has to be the owner/operator of the airport. Can't this service be privatized?-- That can help make the airport run more efficiently and lead to long term operational cost savings and better customer satisfaction. Although apparently PHL already ranks fairly high in the latter category (I seem to recall a survey result on that from last year).

nobody is fighting a modern airport, they're fighting the extra runway. the problem is NY, DC, and Philly are all busy which makes for busy skies.

[phillyaggie]

I said it earlier in this thread and I'll say it again: I think it's an overly optimistic assumption that airlines will rush to serve Philadelphia. Toronto's
Porter airlines are now going to Boston, NY, and DC, but not PHL. Qatar airlines, Boston, NY, and DC; not PHL.
Let's compare the number of foreign carriers at east coast airports:

JFK: 62
Dulles:26
Newark:18
Boston:14
Philadelphia:4
Baltimore:4

That the international airlines don't come to Philly says what? It could be for any number of unrelated reasons. Perhaps the government-owned PHL just isn't good at marketing itself? Perhaps Philly metro isn't as "prestigious" and when an international carrier is picking routes, we're between two world class cities that may be higher in the pecking order. Perhaps Philly metro travels a lot more within the U.S. than overseas.

We're certainly home to several U.S. HQs of international companies, which would require more international travel. And at least one company moved its HQ last year to Philly area from Illinois in order to be better connected to international markets it serves via PHL. Perhaps they saw their needs being fulfilled by PHL...

[Juniataexile]

You listed we reasons we don't have many international carriers and with the possible exception of PHL being government owned they're all valid.
However, it doesn't change my point. We shouldn't assume that airlines will come to PHL to fill any vacancies if US Airways cuts service.
I remember when airlines served meals and Delta had Florida flights from New York and Philadelphia. New Yorkers were served steak, Philadelphia
got chicken.
I'm not knocking PHL or Philadelphia. I hope a US/AA merger will add flights. I'm just worried it won't.

[Lakey]

Foreign flag carriers at PHL – Proximity to NYC is the only reason why PHL has an unusually small number of foreign flag carriers given its number of international travelers. Boston has a slightly larger number of international travelers as Philadelphia yet has 3.5 times as many foreign carriers. International O&D in eastern New England can’t be served from NYC. PHL O&D traffic, especially at EWR, can be. Those carriers have to be in New York and are only going to serve PHL when it’s both profitable and isn’t going to harm their NYC operations. There aren't likely to be many airlines for which that is the case.

US/AA merger – Should this happen, the most likely outcome for PHL is that the merged airline will shift some international service from PHL to JFK and some domestic connecting service from JFK to PHL. Currently, US has more service to Europe from PHL than AA does from JFK and AA operates a domestic connecting hub at JFK. To maximize revenue at slot-controlled JFK, they’ll likely move higher margin international flights there and move some domestic connecting traffic to PHL, which is also operationally a better location (despite its own operational limitations) to do so than JFK or their other options – LGA or DCA. Beyond those airports, an AA/US combo wouldn’t have better options for a northeast hub than PHL even if they could get the required number of gates / slots. They aren’t going to re-hub PIT and BOS is both a geographically worse location and is a much more competitive market. There is always the possibility that PHL could take a bigger hit, but under current circumstances, I don’t think it’s likely.

A decrease in international service sucks, but I’m not sure there is much the airport could do to prevent it from happening if the merger occurs. My best guess is that total employment and the total number of flights and passengers aren’t likely to change much which is good news for the city, but a decrease in international service would still sting.

Airport expansion – The non-runway items generally look like good ideas as the most expensive of them, new terminals and the intra-airport train, would greatly enhance the PHL’s ability to serve as a connecting hub that passengers actually like using. The runway is far more complicated and no one posting in this thread has enough information to do anything other than make what are, at best, barely informed guesses as to whether it would be money well-spent or not.

What we do know is that the two main sources of delays are, in order, ATC and the airfield configuration. Even if ATC is finally improved, the airfield will remain a barrier to efficient operation. PHL still has time to back out of the runway expansion if it doesn’t make financial sense to do so. Hopefully they will if that proves to be the case. Like Aggie, I’m somewhat less concerned about US’s opinion and I’m somewhat more concerned about the runway and UPS. I don’t know what their options are outside of PHL, but my guess is that they are more numerous than US’s. I’m also not sure how much an improved airfield will benefit UPS. Since that facility is the source of a large number of well-paying jobs, I don’t want to see this project put those jobs in jeopardy.

[Juniataexile]

Thanks. Best thing I've read on the subject. Sad though about the international service.

[luchobucho]

This is a big/good development.

City picks managers for massive Philadelphia International Airport expansion

June 02, 2012|By Paul Nussbaum and INQUIRER STAFF WRITER

City officials have selected a joint venture of three companies to manage the planning and construction of the multi-billion-dollar expansion of Philadelphia International Airport.

CH2M HILL, a Denver-based engineering and construction firm, will be the lead company, and will work with minority-owned companies Delon Hampton & Associates of Washington D.C. and CMTS Inc. of Dallas. The city has agreed to pay the team $25 million for the first four-year term of the project.

The project-management team will oversee the complex financial, engineering, design and scheduling elements in preparing for the expansion of the city-owned airport, airport chief executive officer Mark Gale said Thursday.

Full Article at philly.com

[BarryG]

A federal appeals court has denied Tinicum Township's petition for a review of the $6.4 billion planned expansion of Philadelphia International Airport.

Link: Court rejects appeal of Philadelphia airport expansion

[eldondre]

US Airways, city agree to a two-year lease extension at the airport

The agreement does not include building a controversial fifth runway on the river and displacing United Parcel Service from 212 acres it owns.

The city and US Airways, in a joint statement, said they had agreed to:

Lengthen a main east-west runway by 1,500 feet, from 10,500 to 12,000 feet, to accommodate large, long-haul aircraft capable of flying anywhere in the world.

Redesign the Terminal B and C ticketing areas, with new, automated baggage handling and screening and a centralized, spacious passenger-security checkpoint.

Replace current rental-car surface lots with a multistory, consolidated rental-car building.

Design an automated "people mover" train between the concourses, making it easier for passengers to connect to flights.

Improve taxiway and aircraft-holding areas on the airfield to queue planes better for departure.

Make security upgrades, roof and window replacements, and improvements to escalators, restrooms, roadways, concessions, and flight-information displays.

[Lakey]

FORT WORTH: American Airlines-US Airways merger may be announced soon - Business - MiamiHerald.com

A merger between American Airlines and US Airways could be announced as early as next week as the two companies move closer to finalizing details of a deal, sources familiar with the negotiations say. Neither airline's board has met to formally approve a union, however. The AMR Corp. board is expected to meet early next week ... US Airways Chief Executive Doug Parker is likely to lead the merged carrier

No information yet on the anticipated impact at either airline's hubs.

[Juniataexile]

The airline-enthusiasts on-line forums are a depressing read. How many flights PHL will lose and how quickly.

[mixiboi]

Seeing that AA just got a brand new logo..bye bye US Airways brand...

[Lakey]

The airline-enthusiasts on-line forums are a depressing read. How many flights PHL will lose and how quickly.

Meh. I doubt there is much useful info on those boards. More likely it's a bunch of blowhards whose arguments consist of
1. NYC is the most awesomest place on earth and Philly is a craphole that no one ever visits
2. The cities are proximate, therefore PHL's days as a hub are toast

There hasn't been much public speculation from airline analysts about hubs yet other than most expect PHX to shrink and that they'll have to divest slots/gates at DCA. Both make sense, but forecasting what will happen at PHL is a lot more complicated.

If US/AA didn't face so many barriers to exapnding at LGA/JFK then I would expect PHL to get hit fairly hard but those barriers do exist. Furthermore, the combined airline gains almost no gates/slots at JFK because US has such a small footprint at JFK and I'm not sure they even own the slots they have. They mey be leasing them from *A partners. They won't be the dominant (or even close to it) carrier at either airport post-merger. PHL has its own operational issues, but it isn't slot or perimeter restricted, it's currently a profitable operation for US and it's a good O/D market on numerous domestic routes and on some TATL routes. The decsions they make about LGA/JFK operations will have the biggest impact on PHL but in the end I don't think PHL loses hub status in the foreseeable future.

US's current business model has being the dominant airline at its hubs as a core feature. It remains to be seen how Doug Parker will adjust given that US/AA isn't and won't be the dominant carrier at LAX, ORD, LGA/JFK, though those will all be very important hubs for the combined airline. Nevertheless, it's one of the reasons beyond capacity restrictions in New York that I think it's unlikely that PHL gets whacked and it is one of the reasons I think PHX ends up a focus city.

I'm sure there will be changes in routes and frequencies. As I've posted in this thread, I expect PHL will lose some TATL flights both year-round and seasonal. However, I would be surpised if they didn't continue service to LHR, CDG, FRA, FCO and maybe MAN or MAD year-round. Given AA's legal issues with Israel, I'm not sure if they'll be able to keep TLV service. I could see seasonal service continue to DUB and BCN for example.

My best guess is that overall, PHL may end up having roughly the same experience as MSP after the DL/NW merger. At MSP total flights are down and international frequencies/destinations were reduced a bit, but total enplanements are about the same as pre-merger. Obviously my guesses may not be accurate, but I'll at least wait until some industry experts weigh in before getting worried about a major loss of service at PHL.

[eldondre]

It seems like if they shrunk their domestic footprint that southwest would move right back in since the main reason for retrenching was staunch competition from US Airways. I have read multiple places that phoenix stands to lose the most (both flights AND corp HQ)..so it must be true. ; )

[Juniataexile]

Agreed a lot of the voices are blowhards. They seem offended that anyone would dare compare prosaic PHL/US Airways with glamorous NYC/American.

I think you're right about PHL not losing all international service but sometimes Philadelphia pessimism seems realistic.
As communications improve things centralize. Philadelphia had its own British Consulate, now we have a phone number in New York.

[londoner]

The airline-enthusiasts on-line forums are a depressing read. How many flights PHL will lose and how quickly.

If you read the guys over at airliners.net it's the exact opposite. The consensus being that PHL will not lose hub status, may reduce it's total flights slightly for cost/redundancy reasons--but also could pick up a few additional key European/Asian routes. Effectively PHL becomes AA's megahub--the prime connection point for all traffic in and out of the NE as well as International--while JFK who can't grow/expand due to slot constraints, and is more a hub in name only--continues to focus on its massive O&D market.

PHX, due to its proximity to LAX and DFW--and also potentially impacted by ORD--will get slammed the worse. Leisure-oriented traffic is low yield and many of the connections can more efficiently be made at DFW and ORD. B/c of low competition at PHL, for better or worse, we're actually positioned to become the megahub for the biggest Airline in the states.