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  1. #41
    Juniataexile is offline Member
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    Default The nazis complained about the trolleys too

    Speaking about shenanigans and the joys and wonders of 1940's Philadelphia transit...

    At http://www.psywar.org/race.php you can see a propaganda leaflet where the Nazis point to the racist 1944 PTC strike as a reason for Black G.I.S to desert.

    "In Philadelphia all workers of the elevated and subway lines, of the trolley car, omnibus and railroad companies went on a protest strike....They refused to instruct colored labor....
    The white Americans, however, don't mind sending you to the battlefields...."

    (Should be on the History Thread but I do what I can)

  2. #42
    CV's mum is offline Member
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    There seems to be a large contingent here who would like to see the 23 split into at least 2 routes. I don't object to that. I occasionally take the bus (a long, leisurely ride, for sure) from South Philly to Mount Airy. I have considered taking the BSL to the Erie stop to save a little time, but I know nothing about the Erie stop (safety, specifically) and haven't given it a shot yet. If the route is split, it is possible that the Erie stop could see an uptick in transfers. Is it a generally safe stop? I never ride at night and tend to be cautious regardless, but is there any reason I should be extra careful at that stop if I transfer from the subway to the bus there?

  3. #43
    eldondre is offline Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by CV's mum View Post
    There seems to be a large contingent here who would like to see the 23 split into at least 2 routes. I don't object to that. I occasionally take the bus (a long, leisurely ride, for sure) from South Philly to Mount Airy. I have considered taking the BSL to the Erie stop to save a little time, but I know nothing about the Erie stop (safety, specifically) and haven't given it a shot yet. If the route is split, it is possible that the Erie stop could see an uptick in transfers. Is it a generally safe stop? I never ride at night and tend to be cautious regardless, but is there any reason I should be extra careful at that stop if I transfer from the subway to the bus there?
    it's not the greatest area but I've never had an issue. It's been recomended in the past that the 23 alter its route so that riders don't have to walk a block when transferring south, and certainly I'd think that would be the case if the route were split. it's also been recomended to put access to the subway in the median island, which would further separate transfers from the sidewalk. I've been in your position before but I eventually got so tired of the slow ride I started transferring at erie since the subway is so much faster (that's particularly the case from south philly). the main annoyance with this is northbound,the bus often runs late so you end up standing around. of course, if the bus originated inat broad and erie, that would not be a problem. I'd also posit that for riders who do prefer a one seater, it might still make more sense if the germantown ave portion of the 23 had its southern routing changed to run on broad st from 11th/12th, perhaps moving the 4 bus so it runs n/s on 11th/12th between rising sun and south philly.
    "It has shown me that everything is illuminated in the light of the past"
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  4. #44
    mixiboi's Avatar
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    This is one of the things I hope that the NPT will get people more used to is transferring....Because right now if you don't have to, you don't want to(Which explains the 23 and the former C bus situation).
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  5. #45
    eldondre is offline Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by mixiboi View Post
    This is one of the things I hope that the NPT will get people more used to is transferring....Because right now if you don't have to, you don't want to(Which explains the 23 and the former C bus situation).
    the payment technology isn't the problem, it's septa's rules and unwillingness to change.they charge a premium for people to do something they don't want to do to begin with, transfer, which is completely backwards. rule of thumb is you lose 50% of passengers with a change, add a penalty and that has to be higher.
    "It has shown me that everything is illuminated in the light of the past"
    Jonathan Safran Foer

  6. #46
    Sharkfood is offline Senior Member
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    Recently, the Philadelphia Business Journal published a list of SEPTA routes ranked by daily ridership. I was amazed to read that Route 23 came in third, behind only the Broad Street Line and the Market Frankford El.
    Yes, that means it was ahead of (a) the Paoli local regional rail, (b) the Route 15 trolley, (c) the Norristown High Speed Line, and (d) all the subway surface lines. I think the daily ridership was around 21,000. Granted, it's a long route, but it's not like SEPTA doesn't have a lot of long bus routes.

    Certainly, the high level of ridership would be an argument in support of investing in the restoration of trolley service.

  7. #47
    eldondre is offline Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sharkfood View Post
    Recently, the Philadelphia Business Journal published a list of SEPTA routes ranked by daily ridership. I was amazed to read that Route 23 came in third, behind only the Broad Street Line and the Market Frankford El.
    Yes, that means it was ahead of (a) the Paoli local regional rail, (b) the Route 15 trolley, (c) the Norristown High Speed Line, and (d) all the subway surface lines. I think the daily ridership was around 21,000. Granted, it's a long route, but it's not like SEPTA doesn't have a lot of long bus routes.

    Certainly, the high level of ridership would be an argument in support of investing in the restoration of trolley service.
    actually, no, septa doesn't have any other routes as long. if you look at the number of people moved per vehicle hour (an indicator of not just efficiency, but also how crowded a bus might be..which might be an argument for where to put larger rail based vehicles) you get a different picture...if I'm not mistaken, the 23 drops out of the top ten bus routes...instead, the list is topped by the 47m, 47, 60, and 33. indeed, if you add the 17 and 33 together. based on last year's service plan numbers, the 23 was #1 in annual riders, but based on vehicle miles (which takes into account both the length and number of buses) the 23 moved 5 people per vehicle mile operated. the 34 moved 11, the 11,54, and 60 moved 10 per vehicle mile. another measure of efficiency might be riders per vehicle hour. not coincidentally, the same grouping (though in slightly different order) is at the top. the 34 is tops (actually, 47M is the top bus route) with 89 per vehicle hour, followed by the other trolleys. the top bus routes were the 54,60,33,8,6,26...so despite anti-transfer policies, the crosstowns still, by and large, outperformed. that isn't to say that high ridership doesn't belong in an argument, it does, but certainly not the sole reasons and the data says that the reason the 23 is so well ridden is that its really long and runs a lot. in fact, it comes in third in vehicle miles just after the el and bsl. unlike the 23, the el and bsl also come in at the top of the other categories. the 33 and 17 together have fewer vehicle miles and 30% more riders.

    interestingly, the paoli thorndale line dropped over 300k riders from one year to the next (2010 to 2011 asp so probably 2009/2010 numbers) along with $1.2 milliion in revenue which caused the operating ratio to drop from 54% to 46%. what happened?
    Last edited by eldondre; 03-19-2012 at 04:39 PM.
    "It has shown me that everything is illuminated in the light of the past"
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  8. #48
    BarryG is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by eldondre View Post
    interestingly, the paoli thorndale line dropped over 300k riders from one year to the next (2010 to 2011 asp so probably 2009/2010 numbers) along with $1.2 milliion in revenue which caused the operating ratio to drop from 54% to 46%. what happened?
    Gas got cheaper.

  9. #49
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    No. 1 — Market-Frankford Line (El). Origin-Destination: Frankford Transportation Center to 69th Street Transportation Center.
    No. 2 — Broad Street Line (subway). Origin-Destination: Fern Rock Transportation Center to South Philadelphia.
    No. 3 — Route 23 Bus. Origin-Destination: Chestnut Hill to South Philadelphia.
    No. 4 — Paoli/Thorndale Regional Rail Line. Origin-Destination: To/From Center City Philadelphia.
    No. 5 — Route 18 Bus. Origin-Destination: Cedarbrook to Lawndale and Fox Chase.
    No. 6 — Route 47 Bus. Origin-Destination: Olney to South Philadelphia.
    No. 7 — Route 34 Trolley. Origin-Destination: Angora to Center City.
    No. 8 — Route 13 Trolley. Origin-Destination: Yeadon and Darby Transportation Center to Center City.
    No. 9 — Route 52 Bus. Origin-Destination: Wynnefield/Bala Cynwyd to Kingsessing.
    No. 10 — Route 11 Trolley. Origin-Destination: Darby Transportation Center to Center City.
    No. 11 — Lansdale/Doylestown Regional Rail Line. Origin-Destination: To/from Center City.
    No. 12 — Route 36 Trolley. Origin-Destination: Eastwick to Center City.
    No. 13 — Route 10 Trolley. Origin-Destination: Overbrook to Center City.
    No. 14 — Route C Bus* (now operating as new Routes 4 and 16). Origin-Destination: Center City and South Philadelphia to Fern Rock Transportation and West Oak Lane.
    No. 15 — Route 33 Bus. Origin-Destination: Tioga to Penn’s Landing.
    No. 16 — Route G Bus. South Philadelphia to Overbrook and Lankenau Medical Center.
    No. 17 — Route 17 Bus. Origin-Destination: South Philadelphia to Penn’s Landing.
    No. 18 — Route 60 Bus. Origin-Destination: Port Richmond to East Falls.
    No. 19 West Trenton Regional Rail Line Origin-Destination: To/from Center City
    No. 20 — Route 14 Bus. Origin-Destination: Oxford Valley and Neshaminy malls to Frankford Transportation Center.
    No. 21 — Route 26 Bus. Origin-Destination: Germantown (Chelten Avenue Station) to Olney and Frankford Transportation Center.
    No. 22 — Route 42 Bus. Origin-Destination: Wycombe and West Philadelphia to Penn’s Landing.
    No. 23 — Route 56 Bus. Origin-Destination: Tacony to Nicetown.
    No. 24 — Route 15 Trolley. Origin-Destination: Port Richmond to Haddington.
    No. 25 — Route 57 Bus. Origin-Destination: South Philadelphia to Fern Rock Transportation Center.

    Who has the busiest SEPTA route?
    Graphic Designer, Social Media Consultant. Twitter: @Sdlaugh

  10. #50
    eldondre is offline Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by BarryG View Post
    Gas got cheaper.
    ah yes, you're correct, though I suspect ridership might be higher on the paoli thorndale line if the average fare was $0.93 like it is on the 23 rather than $3.84.
    anyway, the point though was that having the third most passengers overall doesn't necessarily mean that a) it's the busiest route or b) deserves what is sure to be a $200+million investment over other routes. they need to break it up if for no other reason than people can no longer point to it as having so many riders regardless of whether it's a lot or not relative to its length. the nutty pricing on the regional rail lines means the two germantown trains don't do a lot of business (chestnut hill east germantown does less than 300 riders a day) while the 23, x, xh are all full between broad and chelten. personally, I think germantown and chelten should become C zone...at the very least wayne jct. in south philly if I was going to put in surface rail, it'd probably be the 47 rather than the 23.
    eta: just to put mixboi's numbers in a little perspective they should look more like this
    No. 1 — Market-Frankford Line (El). Origin-Destination: Frankford Transportation Center to 69th Street Transportation Center. 51,620,640 passengers

    No. 2 — Broad Street Line (subway). Origin-Destination: Fern Rock Transportation Center to South Philadelphia. 39,178,28 passengers






    No. 3 — Route 23 Bus. Origin-Destination: Chestnut Hill to South Philadelphia. 6,497,300 passengers -$12.9 million (-1.98 per passenger)
    No. 15 — Route 33 Bus. Origin-Destination: Tioga to Penn’s Landing. 4,431,159 passengers -$4.8 million (-1.08 per passenger)
    Last edited by eldondre; 03-19-2012 at 10:28 PM.
    "It has shown me that everything is illuminated in the light of the past"
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  11. #51
    TLP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BarryG View Post
    Gas got cheaper.
    Also, I don't have any evidence to back this up, but, it seems as if the last year has been particularly bad for the Paoli-Thorndale line in terms of delays and dropped trips. I don't know if that's enough to send some of the people back to their cars.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by MariusPontmercy View Post
    Let me remind everyone, money is allocated in their capital budget starting fiscal year 2015 for the restoration of the line. It's not simply proposed, they intend to spend the money but I suppose that's pending funding. Also, if you look at former streetcar lines in Philadelphia that were "permanently temporarily suspended" SEPTA usually tears up the track and pulls down the overhead wires and poles within the decade. If nothing else this stuff is valuable as scrap metal. The fact that they've let the stuff sit for 18 years makes you stop to think what exactly they're up to. Maybe I'm making too many inferences though.
    SEPTA's long-range capital budget is sort of like the old Sears catalog: just because something's in it doesn't mean you'll ever get it. A lot of those long-range projects with zero funding are in there primarily for show, and restoration of the 23 - and the 56 on Torresdale Avenue - is one of those.

    However: The Northeast Spur subway, while also in the zero funding category, more likely than not WILL happen someday. That someday may be far, far off, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by eldondre View Post
    that and when you run buses, maintenance of the ROW is someone else's budget. of course there's a flip side to this, buses can change routes easily, why has SEPTA not changed the 23's route?
    The SEPTA did alter the southern tip of the 23, shifting its terminus from 10th and Bigler streets to Broad and Oregon subway station.

    Quote Originally Posted by xian_01 View Post
    Our on-street light rail transit system was the sole survivor of the Great American Streetcar Scandal on the east coast and the only system to fall victim to the neglect of its own operator in the 80s and 90s. Its remnants are a part of this city's heritage and should never be paved over, especially in this age of higher and higher fuel prices, increased public transit ridership, and renewed light rail development.
    If by "Great American Streetcar Scandal" you mean the National City Lines conspiracy, let me caution you that trolleys disappeared faster in most non-NCL cities than they did in those where NCL owned or operated the system. Philadelphia Transportation Company was operated by NCL from the late 1940s onward.

    Quote Originally Posted by mixiboi View Post
    The hope I have is that when they replace the K-Cars, that the 15 will get those too and the PCC can go to germantown and chestnut hill as an heritage line..
    The ADA will require that any new equipment on the 15 be wheelchair accessible. Unlike the PCCs, the K-cars can't be retrofitted to provide this access.
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  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarketStEl View Post
    The ADA will require that any new equipment on the 15 be wheelchair accessible. Unlike the PCCs, the K-cars can't be retrofitted to provide this access.
    Rumors I heard that SEPTA was looking onto retofitting the k-cars, how? That isunknown, bit guess they would make the insides lower?
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  14. #54
    eldondre is offline Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarketStEl View Post
    The SEPTA did alter the southern tip of the 23, shifting its terminus from 10th and Bigler streets to Broad and Oregon subway station.
    stop the presses!
    Quote Originally Posted by TLP View Post
    Also, I don't have any evidence to back this up, but, it seems as if the last year has been particularly bad for the Paoli-Thorndale line in terms of delays and dropped trips. I don't know if that's enough to send some of the people back to their cars.
    I suspect there may have been some shift to the keystone trains as well, particularly west of paoli.
    Last edited by eldondre; 03-23-2012 at 11:36 PM.
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  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by mixiboi View Post
    Rumors I heard that SEPTA was looking onto retofitting the k-cars, how? That isunknown, bit guess they would make the insides lower?
    They can't do that any more than they could lower the floors on the PCC IIs, which are accessible - lifts were installed in the center exit door well.

    The K-cars would have to be modified in identical fashion. From what I understand, the center pillars that separate the two blinker doors at both the front and the center of the car are integral to the car's structural integrity and thus cannot be removed.
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  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by eldondre View Post
    stop the presses!
    I guess my followup question would be: What other part of the 23's route really needs to be altered?
    Sandy Smith, Wanderer in Germantown, Philadelphia
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  17. #57
    eldondre is offline Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarketStEl View Post
    I guess my followup question would be: What other part of the 23's route really needs to be altered?
    aside from the fact the alteration you cited wasnt needed, the obvious answer would be the germantown ave portion should be split off into its own route with the 11/12th st portion becoming more like the 2 bus. it seems likely septas hesitance to alter the route stems drom wanting to avoid conflict with the trolley people who would see it as the death knell for their trolley dreams.
    "It has shown me that everything is illuminated in the light of the past"
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  18. #58
    BarryG is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by eldondre View Post
    aside from the fact the alteration you cited wasnt needed, the obvious answer would be the germantown ave portion should be split off into its own route with the 11/12th st portion becoming more like the 2 bus. it seems likely septas hesitance to alter the route stems drom wanting to avoid conflict with the trolley people who would see it as the death knell for their trolley dreams.
    I would suspect it has more to do with avoiding conflict with riders, it is after all the bus line with the highest ridership and the route (with the exception of the southern extension) is unchanged since when, the '50?. When was the last time they split a long route? The C split didn't change anything for riders. If anything, splitting it improve the chances of trolley restoration because it makes a lot more sense on Germantown Ave than in CC and South Philly.

  19. #59
    Nexis4Jersey is offline Member
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    Septa is replacing the K-cars not retrofitting them.....along with replacing all its Silverliner fleet....

  20. #60
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    Which is why its was just a rumor. I like the rumor of slightly longer LRT cars myself.

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