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  1. #21
    eldondre is offline Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by thunda View Post
    Sorry for betraying my ignorance, but what is a turnout?
    allows the train to be "turned out" from one track to the other
    "It has shown me that everything is illuminated in the light of the past"
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  2. #22
    thunda is offline Local celebrity
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    Quote Originally Posted by eldondre View Post
    allows the train to be "turned out" from one track to the other
    So it's a same as a switch.

    Railroad switch - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    A railroad switch, turnout or [set of] points is a mechanical installation enabling railway trains to be guided from one track to another at a railway junction.

  3. #23
    eldondre is offline Moderator
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    had a good thanksgiving week
    14 - Keystone 2009 -31,730 vs 2008 28,194 +12.5
    http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/BlobSe..._Ridership.pdf
    "It has shown me that everything is illuminated in the light of the past"
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  4. #24
    raider.adam is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by eldondre View Post
    Has Amtrak ever done surveys of their riders? Like ask them their frequency of ridership. typical locations and why they choose the train over other modes?

  5. #25
    eldondre is offline Moderator
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    The first sight that greets visitors as they drive into Middletown on Route 230 from the Pennsylvania Turnpike or Harrisburg International Airport is an old abandoned warehouse — but someday the gateway to Dauphin County’s oldest community may be a new train station.

    The old AP Green warehouse may be torn down to build a “well accommodated’’ train station, says the warehouse’s owner.
    James Nardo, who bought the warehouse for about $1 million in 2007, wants to combine the property with a small strip mall he owns next door and turn the entire site into a business complex that would include a hotel, grocery store and restaurants....Emaus Street would be extended to the complex, which Nardo calls Westporte Centre, and then to Main Street, tying the development to Middletown’s business district...“I think it’s going to be a tremendous asset to the borough,’’ said Councilor Diana McGlone...One problem with the airport site is that it’s on the wrong side of the tracks — literally, said one borough official. A freight track runs between the site and the track that Amtrak uses, said Robert Louer, borough council president. Amtrak trains would have to cross it to get to the airport station.

    At the AP Green site, “they wouldn’t have to do any shifting of the rails,’’ said Louer. “I think that’s why it’s going to have the highest consideration. That will give Middletown the ace in the hole.’’..If the railroad station is not built on the AP Green site, a convenience store is planned for the spot.
    A grocery store chain is “looking seriously’’ at Westporte Centre, while Hardee’s and Wachovia Bank would remain, said Nardo.
    Press and Journal

    interesting in the way the train station is affecting development plans. if they get the station, they get a TOD IN town complete witha grocery store (though middletown actually has a downtown grocery store) and offices. If they get shafted, middletown gets a convenience store. I imagine the faster the train, the bigger the difference in impact.
    "It has shown me that everything is illuminated in the light of the past"
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  6. #26
    eldondre is offline Moderator
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    meanwhile, there's no movement on future improvements
    From July 1, 2009, to June 30, 2010, ridership totaled 1.277 million, which was a 3.9 percent increase over the previous fiscal year’s 1.229 million trips.
    Milestone for Amtrak?s Phila.-to-Harrisburg line - Philadelphia Business Journal
    "It has shown me that everything is illuminated in the light of the past"
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  7. #27
    eldondre is offline Moderator
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    EXTON, Nov. 10 – State Rep. Barb McIlvaine Smith, D-Chester, has secured a commitment from the Pennsylvania Department of Transportation and Amtrak to add an additional stop at Exton Station to the Keystone Service line.



    The train will now make an 8 a.m. westbound stop. McIlvaine Smith explained the Amtrak line did not stop at Exton Station between 6:50 a.m. and 9:30 a.m., which created a two-and-a-half hour gap in prime commuting time.
    McIlvaine Smith gets green light for new Exton stop on Amtrak commuter line

    In an unusual move, the Pennsylvania Department of Transportation has allocated a little more than $15 million for a new station before it is designed...The money is expected to cover the cost of new high-level platforms, accessibility improvements and a pedestrian overpass — though the state isn't totally sure how much the whole project will cost.

    Along with another $1.3 million pledged from other sources, the money will also be used to construct some kind of waiting area for riders that's “way better than a normal bus shelter” but not a full-fledged station building with public restrooms.
    http://planphilly.com/news/notebook/...on-coatesville
    Last edited by eldondre; 11-15-2010 at 02:15 PM.
    "It has shown me that everything is illuminated in the light of the past"
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  8. #28
    billy ross is offline Senior Member
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    "But before any of this money is actually used, PennDOT wants to join the project with some kind of transit-oriented development to stabilize the neighborhood.

    The goal, Fauver said, is to use the new train station as an economic development tool. And the additional street traffic and a stabilized neighborhood will hopefully, in turn, make riders waiting for a train feel safe.

    The current station suffers from low ridership and doesn't have any Amtrak amenities or a place to buy tickets."

    This sounds like the North Philly station to me. It seems to me that the Keystone would be a better line if it stopped at North Philly instead of 30th Street. I figure it would save about 30 minutes in each direction, assuming zoo interlocking allows eastbound trains to access the northbound NEC (a reasonable assumption). Another option of course would be to upgrade the tracks between 30th Street and the Schuylkill River, though, allowing the trains to go higher than bicycle speed for that one mile and a half (?) stretch. If Amtrak did move the Philly stop to North Philly, it should be coordinated with the R7 or R8 to effect a shuttle-style connection to 30th Street for those who want to go south on the NEC or who want to get to the airport or who want to take one of Amtrak's long-haul trains (e.g. the Amish).

    I'm surprised that any stations on the Keystone aren't HLP at this point. I'll have to pay more attention going forward.
    Last edited by billy ross; 11-15-2010 at 03:23 PM.

  9. #29
    eldondre is offline Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by billy ross View Post
    "But before any of this money is actually used, PennDOT wants to join the project with some kind of transit-oriented development to stabilize the neighborhood.
    The goal, Fauver said, is to use the new train station as an economic development tool. And the additional street traffic and a stabilized neighborhood will hopefully, in turn, make riders waiting for a train feel safe.
    The current station suffers from low ridership and doesn't have any Amtrak amenities or a place to buy tickets."
    This sounds like the North Philly station to me. It seems to me that the Keystone would be a better line if it stopped at North Philly instead of 30th Street. I figure it would save about 30 minutes in each direction, assuming zoo interlocking allows eastbound trains to access the northbound NEC (a reasonable assumption). Another option of course would be to upgrade the tracks between 30th Street and the Schuylkill River, though, allowing the trains to go higher than bicycle speed for that one mile and a half (?) stretch. If Amtrak did move the Philly stop to North Philly, it should be coordinated with the R7 or R8 to effect a shuttle-style connection to 30th Street for those who want to go south on the NEC or who want to get to the airport or who want to take one of Amtrak's long-haul trains (e.g. the Amish).I'm surprised that any stations on the Keystone aren't HLP at this point. I'll have to pay more attention going forward.
    none of the ones that haven't been renovated are HLP (most notably Paoli). I don't disagree with any of your analysis. personally, I'd route the ten NY trips per day via the pittsburgh subway (still funcitonal though it would probably need some rehabilitation and signaling) stopping only in NY, using the equipment freed up by this change to run more trains between 30th and Harrisburg (potentially into Suburban). I think getting Paoli up and running (they want to add a high level center platform that would allow for same platform transfers from inbound Amtrak trains to inbound SEPTA trains at least (not sure about the other direction).At any rate, I think if you wanted an effective transfer between SEPTA trains and Amtrak for the inbound to 30th st you'd have to rebuild 52nd st in a manner in which passengers could transfer same or cross platform between the two services. I'm also surprised that they funded coatesville over middletown which they've been studying since forever.
    "It has shown me that everything is illuminated in the light of the past"
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  10. #30
    BenDee is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by billy ross View Post
    This sounds like the North Philly station to me. It seems to me that the Keystone would be a better line if it stopped at North Philly instead of 30th Street. I figure it would save about 30 minutes in each direction, assuming zoo interlocking allows eastbound trains to access the northbound NEC (a reasonable assumption). Another option of course would be to upgrade the tracks between 30th Street and the Schuylkill River, though, allowing the trains to go higher than bicycle speed for that one mile and a half (?) stretch. If Amtrak did move the Philly stop to North Philly, it should be coordinated with the R7 or R8 to effect a shuttle-style connection to 30th Street for those who want to go south on the NEC or who want to get to the airport or who want to take one of Amtrak's long-haul trains (e.g. the Amish).
    Moving the Philly stop on the Keystone to North Philly is foolish, at least to those in Philadelphia. Plenty of people travel between Harrisburg & 30th, and routing it around Philly would hurt the Center City job & housing market.

    Few would want to take a 2 seat ride into Center City, and even fewer would be willing to transfer in North Philly. Nobody who can afford Amtrak is getting on or off at North Philly.

    The travel time to North Philly would be within a minute of getting to 30th Street station, meaning that it will take people longer to get into the city. People aren't going to take the BSL due to the 1500' walk through North Philly.

    If gentrification keeps up the way it is by pushing the high crime areas farther and farther out of the downtown core, it's something that could become a possibility in 10-20 years. For now though, no way. Maybe a train or two per day each direction to NYC, but they won't (and rightly so) divert the trains from 30th Street.

  11. #31
    billy ross is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by eldondre View Post
    none of the ones that haven't been renovated are HLP (most notably Paoli). I don't disagree with any of your analysis. personally, I'd route the ten NY trips per day via the pittsburgh subway (still funcitonal though it would probably need some rehabilitation and signaling) stopping only in NY, using the equipment freed up by this change to run more trains between 30th and Harrisburg (potentially into Suburban). I think getting Paoli up and running (they want to add a high level center platform that would allow for same platform transfers from inbound Amtrak trains to inbound SEPTA trains at least (not sure about the other direction).At any rate, I think if you wanted an effective transfer between SEPTA trains and Amtrak for the inbound to 30th st you'd have to rebuild 52nd st in a manner in which passengers could transfer same or cross platform between the two services. I'm also surprised that they funded coatesville over middletown which they've been studying since forever.
    Pittsburgh Subway?

  12. #32
    billy ross is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by BenDee View Post
    Moving the Philly stop on the Keystone to North Philly is foolish, at least to those in Philadelphia. Plenty of people travel between Harrisburg & 30th, and routing it around Philly would hurt the Center City job & housing market.

    Few would want to take a 2 seat ride into Center City, and even fewer would be willing to transfer in North Philly. Nobody who can afford Amtrak is getting on or off at North Philly.

    The travel time to North Philly would be within a minute of getting to 30th Street station, meaning that it will take people longer to get into the city. People aren't going to take the BSL due to the 1500' walk through North Philly.

    If gentrification keeps up the way it is by pushing the high crime areas farther and farther out of the downtown core, it's something that could become a possibility in 10-20 years. For now though, no way. Maybe a train or two per day each direction to NYC, but they won't (and rightly so) divert the trains from 30th Street.
    I'm not saying it should happen tonight. As the gentrification around Temple, now only a mere five blocks from the North Philadelphia station, continues to make the Broad Street Subway more of a palatable mode of transportation, the North Philly station won't remain a black hole. I see TOD there, just like in the article about the 'ville. Remember that it wasn't that long ago that 30th Street Station was scary, with riders getting mugged right and left between the station and the parking lots. The North Philadelphia Station used to be a popular station and it seems that nowadays everything old is new again.

    As long as the Keystone stops at least once in Philly, I'm somewhat happy. I guess that the answer to our quandary is how many passengers ride the Keystone between Philly and Harrisburg, how many travel through Philly, and how many just do the leg north of Philly? I'm guessing that enough ride north from Philly that 30th is key, but I'm not sure. I'd just like to see some TOD around either Cornwells Heights or North Philly. It is my opinion that since it is called the Keystone Line there should be a stop between 30th Street and Trenton, or maybe even Trenton should be skipped and another PA stop added. I mean, even the Acela stops at both Boston South and Back Bay, not to mention the Northeast Direct. I fail to understand how the premier high speed train line in the USA stops twice in Boston but Pennsylvania's own special train line can't be bothered to stop at more than one station in Philly or even reasonably near Philly, not to mention Acela or even Northeast Direct. That's silly, and it should end. If every Keystone Train stopped at either Cornwells Heights or North Philly, offering hourly one hour rides to NYC, gentrification in Philly would go up a notch near said train station. As a matter of fact, I believe that if it were Cornwells Heights all the doom and gloom surrounding Northeast Philly right now would go away. Northeast Philly would be closer to New York, timewise, than many established suburbs in New York, New Jersey, and Connecticut, but at one quarter the price and with a reasonably high quality of life. Just give me one, I don't want both. North Philly or Cornwells Heights. Take your pick, Amtrak and PennDOT.
    Last edited by billy ross; 11-15-2010 at 06:49 PM.

  13. #33
    eldondre is offline Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by billy ross View Post
    Pittsburgh Subway?
    its a tunnel that allows east/west trains to bypass 30th from zoo. i share your vision though i think north philly is the right station as it has excellent access via 611, regional rail, and the subway. i think a lot of people dont recognize the ability of a fast train to help transform an area mere blocks from temple and temple health with many coversion ready buildings. i think a ten year timeline might be good, make it public. sell tickets at a lower price than regionals (push pull with no food service woild be cheaper to operate) and increase phl-harrisburg svc to ten trips for a total of 20.
    trains to ny stop in ardmore trains to philly do not. maybe set up a skip stop operation and run philly only trains to the airport. right now lancaster philly is the number 1 city pair followed by harrisburg philly, lnc- ny, and harrisburg-ny. eventually there may be enough demand to run this style of service. for now id start with bus connections to pittsburgh and york/gettysburg. worth remembering amtraks proposed high speed line bypasses philly entirely from harrisburg and pittsburgh in their vision. this would be a better set up imo
    Last edited by eldondre; 11-15-2010 at 07:57 PM.
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  14. #34
    BenDee is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by billy ross View Post
    I'm not saying it should happen tonight. As the gentrification around Temple, now only a mere five blocks from the North Philadelphia station, continues to make the Broad Street Subway more of a palatable mode of transportation, the North Philly station won't remain a black hole. I see TOD there, just like in the article about the 'ville. Remember that it wasn't that long ago that 30th Street Station was scary, with riders getting mugged right and left between the station and the parking lots. The North Philadelphia Station used to be a popular station and it seems that nowadays everything old is new again.
    Yet we are still years away from that - I see more Septa trains stopping there before Amtrak. I don't think we'll ever see Amtrak bypass downtown Philly at any point if only for the fact that it is 1) tough to connect there to get into Center City (requires a 1/4 mile outside walk) and 2) adds time to get into Center City.

    As long as the Keystone stops at least once in Philly, I'm somewhat happy. I guess that the answer to our quandary is how many passengers ride the Keystone between Philly and Harrisburg, how many travel through Philly, and how many just do the leg north of Philly? I'm guessing that enough ride north from Philly that 30th is key, but I'm not sure.
    I'm not happy unless it stops in downtown Philly. We're not a 'fringe' location that's just stopped at to please some politico; we are one of the main Amtrak hubs for the Northeast as well as having businesses located near 30th Street station.

    I'd just like to see some TOD around either Cornwells Heights or North Philly. It is my opinion that since it is called the Keystone Line there should be a stop between 30th Street and Trenton, or maybe even Trenton should be skipped and another PA stop added... That's silly, and it should end. If every Keystone Train stopped at either Cornwells Heights or North Philly, offering hourly one hour rides to NYC, gentrification in Philly would go up a notch near said train station. As a matter of fact, I believe that if it were Cornwells Heights all the doom and gloom surrounding Northeast Philly right now would go away.
    North Philly would get it before Cornwells Heights. Planners are looking more at urban development rather than suburban nowadays. I could see the Keystone trains stopping there in addition to 30th, but not at the expense of 30th.

  15. #35
    BarryG is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by eldondre View Post
    its a tunnel that allows east/west trains to bypass 30th from zoo. i share your vision though i think north philly is the right station as it has excellent access via 611, regional rail, and the subway. i think a lot of people dont recognize the ability of a fast train to help transform an area mere blocks from temple and temple health with many coversion ready buildings. i think a ten year timeline might be good, make it public. sell tickets at a lower price than regionals (push pull with no food service woild be cheaper to operate) and increase phl-harrisburg svc to ten trips for a total of 20.
    trains to ny stop in ardmore trains to philly do not. maybe set up a skip stop operation and run philly only trains to the airport. right now lancaster philly is the number 1 city pair followed by harrisburg philly, lnc- ny, and harrisburg-ny. eventually there may be enough demand to run this style of service. for now id start with bus connections to pittsburgh and york/gettysburg. worth remembering amtraks proposed high speed line bypasses philly entirely from harrisburg and pittsburgh in their vision. this would be a better set up imo
    Maybe, I'm missing something since I'm jumping into this late, but besides being closer to CC and UC, doesn't 30th St have better road access (I-76, I-676) and better transit connections (El, trolley lines, Regional Rail, more buses)?

  16. #36
    eldondre is offline Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by BarryG View Post
    Maybe, I'm missing something since I'm jumping into this late, but besides being closer to CC and UC, doesn't 30th St have better road access (I-76, I-676) and better transit connections (El, trolley lines, Regional Rail, more buses)?
    what you are missing is the added time in going to 30th st which is out of the way and requires a change of direction. nobody is proposing ending service to 30th st AFAIK, but moving some service where it improves the trip. also, what is it, $25/day to park at 30th?

    Quote Originally Posted by BenDee
    Yet we are still years away from that - I see more Septa trains stopping there before Amtrak. I don't think we'll ever see Amtrak bypass downtown Philly at any point if only for the fact that it is 1) tough to connect there to get into Center City (requires a 1/4 mile outside walk) and 2) adds time to get into Center City.
    not really, if you are going to center city, it would actually be just as fast (from NY). the walk isn't that long (the old headhouse is now a rita's) and express service could really shrink the distance (what is it, 6 minutes to city hall?..about the same amount of time it takes to get to 30th st). the idea, in my mind, would be to complement service to 30th st. by increasing service between harrisburg and Philly, you will not actually lose any service between the two. You will be able to provide more service with less equipment than you would otherwise. for the time being though, as has been noted, it's not the right time. for now, it would make more sense to simply add north philly as a stop. as the line improves, you can talk about splitting the two services as described.
    "It has shown me that everything is illuminated in the light of the past"
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  17. #37
    BenDee is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by eldondre View Post
    not really, if you are going to center city, it would actually be just as fast (from NY).
    From NY it's the same if you are going to City Hall - just about anywhere else it's faster to go via 30th. From Harrisburg it's not even a contest - it takes the same amount of time to go to North Philly as it does 30th Street.

    the walk isn't that long (the old headhouse is now a rita's)
    5 minutes in North Philly. 1/3 of a mile. All outside. Even in the rain/snow/cold.

    express service could really shrink the distance (what is it, 6 minutes to city hall?..about the same amount of time it takes to get to 30th st).
    But you aren't factoring in the walk and the various modes of transit. Let's evaluate from the moment someone gets on Amtrak in NY/NJ:

    30th Street egress:
    a) Get off at 30th Street
    b) Catch a cab or take the El/Trolley/RR to your final destination in the city

    North Philadelphia egress:
    a) Get off at North Philadelphia
    b) walk 1/3 of a mile (5 minutes) through North Philly, no matter the weather, to the subway
    c) wait an average of four minutes for an express train
    d) Take the BSL to City Hall (7 minutes)
    e) Catch a cab or take the El/Trolley to your final destination in the city.

    A more cogent argument would be to use North Philly as a transfer station, in addition to 30th, for the other Regional Rail lines going north. Move the North Broad station further north (much easier to move than a subway station), add a ticket office, change the name (no suburbanite would transfer at a station called "North Philadelphia", and add amenities & signage. If it takes off, maybe even a coffee shop/cafe.

    The timesavings won't apply to Center City, but it will apply to CH/MA/Rox/'Yunk/suburbs. THAT would shave 30 minutes off total trip times. In addition, it would allow for the TOD you suggest, especially since you aren't trying to convince people going to/from CC to take an inferior transit method.

    the idea, in my mind, would be to complement service to 30th st. by increasing service between harrisburg and Philly, you will not actually lose any service between the two.
    Yes you do. North Philadelphia is not center city. The core loses service, and it hurts the core. Providing service to both is fine, even a couple trains per day in each direction that bypass 30th, but to suggest moving half the Keystone trains there will hurt the city more than help it.

  18. #38
    eldondre is offline Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by BenDee View Post
    From NY it's the same if you are going to City Hall - just about anywhere else it's faster to go via 30th. From Harrisburg it's not even a contest - it takes the same amount of time to go to North Philly as it does 30th Street.
    I think you're misunderstanding the purpose of the line. It cuts off significant time for those originating west of 30th st. there's a demand for this, whether it eventually bypasses philly altogether as Amtrak proposes or is something like this.
    Quote Originally Posted by BenDee View Post
    5 minutes in North Philly. 1/3 of a mile. All outside. Even in the rain/snow/cold.
    meh, I think you're stuck in today. there's no reason why it has to be all outside. it used to be you walked from the pink building (station) to rita's (subway headhouse) via a covered walkway. However, if we're talking TOD here, there's no reason the parking lot itself can't be developed, incorporating a walkway.
    Quote Originally Posted by BenDee View Post
    a) Get off at 30th Street
    b) Catch a cab or take the El/Trolley/RR to your final destination in the city
    North Philadelphia egress:
    a) Get off at North Philadelphia
    b) walk 1/3 of a mile (5 minutes) through North Philly, no matter the weather, to the subway
    c) wait an average of four minutes for an express train
    d) Take the BSL to City Hall (7 minutes)
    e) Catch a cab or take the El/Trolley to your final destination in the city.
    again, you're stuck in today. there's no reason there couldn't be cabs at north philly. there's no reason people wouldn't also be going to temple, the sports complex, south broad.
    Quote Originally Posted by BenDee View Post
    A more cogent argument would be to use North Philly as a transfer station, in addition to 30th, for the other Regional Rail lines going north.
    there's already fern rock and wayne jct.
    edited to add: I see you are talking about transferring from norristown line trains to trenton line trains?

    Quote Originally Posted by BenDee View Post
    Move the North Broad station further north (much easier to move than a subway station), add a ticket office, change the name (no suburbanite would transfer at a station called "North Philadelphia", and add amenities & signage. If it takes off, maybe even a coffee shop/cafe.
    north broad is pretty close to the subway station as it is, though some kind of station structure would be nice. I'm not against encouraging more people to transfer here but it's not going to add a ton of utility, though it should save time over fern rock. it's more useful for transfers to the norristown and chestnut hill lines. still, this isn't going to drive development.

    Quote Originally Posted by BenDee View Post

    Yes you do. North Philadelphia is not center city. The core loses service, and it hurts the core. Providing service to both is fine, even a couple trains per day in each direction that bypass 30th, but to suggest moving half the Keystone trains there will hurt the city more than help it.
    you lose a small fraction of total service, big deal. if you can make it up with additional service to harrisburg from the real core (suburban) and increased ridership to NY that's a tradeoff. remember, 30th st station was a tradeoff, and it was the cheaper option. originally, the PRR wanted to tunnel from 29th and ridge to north broad, then back west. this was too expensive to they built a grand station to entice people to use it rather than where they wanted to be (suburban). the right move is the most expensive, finally overcome this problem by putting intercity trains through center city. barring that, some compromise may be good and isn't going to hurt "the core." the idea would be to increase the total number of Keystone trains such that no service to harrisburg is lost. I don't buy that it would hurt the city. especially if the station were served by the blvd subway.

    billy-I suppose it's possible a train could have a stopping pattern of NYP-Newark-Cornwells/NP/Ardmore/Paoli...
    Last edited by eldondre; 11-16-2010 at 01:58 PM.
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  19. #39
    eldondre is offline Moderator
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    you will not lose the ability to walk to downtown middletown, for better or worse (good for them). it should be a short shuttle ride to the airport as well.
    PennDOT, in partnership with the Dauphin County Redevelopment Authority, reached a purchase agreement for land on West Main Street – between the Ann Street Bridge and the Family Dollar store – for $2.3 million, ...A public meeting planned in early 2011 will gather community input on design and other project considerations...
    PennDOT Announces Middletown Train Station Site -- MIDDLETOWN, Pa., Dec. 6, 2010 /PRNewswire-USNewswire/ --
    "It has shown me that everything is illuminated in the light of the past"
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  20. #40
    billy ross is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by eldondre View Post
    I think you're misunderstanding the purpose of the line. It cuts off significant time for those originating west of 30th st. there's a demand for this, whether it eventually bypasses philly altogether as Amtrak proposes or is something like this.

    meh, I think you're stuck in today. there's no reason why it has to be all outside. it used to be you walked from the pink building (station) to rita's (subway headhouse) via a covered walkway. However, if we're talking TOD here, there's no reason the parking lot itself can't be developed, incorporating a walkway.

    again, you're stuck in today. there's no reason there couldn't be cabs at north philly. there's no reason people wouldn't also be going to temple, the sports complex, south broad.

    there's already fern rock and wayne jct.
    edited to add: I see you are talking about transferring from norristown line trains to trenton line trains?


    north broad is pretty close to the subway station as it is, though some kind of station structure would be nice. I'm not against encouraging more people to transfer here but it's not going to add a ton of utility, though it should save time over fern rock. it's more useful for transfers to the norristown and chestnut hill lines. still, this isn't going to drive development.


    you lose a small fraction of total service, big deal. if you can make it up with additional service to harrisburg from the real core (suburban) and increased ridership to NY that's a tradeoff. remember, 30th st station was a tradeoff, and it was the cheaper option. originally, the PRR wanted to tunnel from 29th and ridge to north broad, then back west. this was too expensive to they built a grand station to entice people to use it rather than where they wanted to be (suburban). the right move is the most expensive, finally overcome this problem by putting intercity trains through center city. barring that, some compromise may be good and isn't going to hurt "the core." the idea would be to increase the total number of Keystone trains such that no service to harrisburg is lost. I don't buy that it would hurt the city. especially if the station were served by the blvd subway.

    billy-I suppose it's possible a train could have a stopping pattern of NYP-Newark-Cornwells/NP/Ardmore/Paoli...
    It should be simple to bring the Keystone through 30th Street on the upper tracks (the SEPTA tracks), then run the Keystone through Suburban with or without stopping, then similarly Market East, then rejoin the NEC after Temple. The amount of track work this would require would be minimal, and it should shave about 20 minutes off of the run from Harrisburg to NYC. Seems like a cheap investment to me. Long-term, at least until Zoo Interlocking gets straightened out, that may end up being the new path of the NEC. There is too much time lost getting through Zoo Interlocking, on both sides. Meanwhile, people making transfers at 30th Street should still be able to easily do so, from the upper platforms to the lower platforms.

 

 

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