Tony Goldman, redeveloper of 13th Street, dead at 68

[AprilMaybe]

So the word tranny is considered inappropriate?

Yeah, it's pretty bad.

Not being a dick, I genuinely had no idea. I am sure most people that use that word don't hate transvestites (is this word offensive too?), I certainly don't.

That's a little more complicated. It's OK as long as you use it to describe actual transvestites, as opposed to people who are transgendered. They're different things.

[supersupper]

Since I was commenting about everybody's free and easy use of the word "tranny" (which I thought was fairly obvious from the context), there isn't much I'd actually like to add to a discussion where language like that's the norm. Saying something like "Awesome bigotry, gang" would be a little flippant; and an in-depth discussion of why using that word to discuss trans people is pretty disgusting would be even more off-topic. Suffice it to say that the hate speech bandied about really shouldn't be part of this discussion.

You should add something to the discussion about Goldman in addition to slapping wrists with a ruler, otherwise you come off merely as one of those cooks who criticize spelling/grammatical errors as an indication that the end of civilization is nigh.

Is the word derogatory? Maybe it is if you think about it, but I for one wasn't thinking about that as much as I was thinking about and commenting on how Goldman really didn't worry about much other than creating a vibrant street that recently wasn't, and as a consequence many people of different stripes happily coexists. You should focus on that goodness.

I'd also argue that the term, if used derogatorily, was in this case used to generically to identify all stripes of people who once frequented that strip to solicit sex and engage in it in sometimes openly and dangerous ways. It was not used to insult a physical/psychological individuality. My echoing the term Trannies was a way of identifying the differences without saying so, but obviously that was too subtle for you.


oh heck, stick a 'y' at the end of any word and it becomes derogatory:

short - shorty
girl - girly
man - manly

but i don't see people organized against GLEE for that.

[Hospitalitygirl]

Since I was commenting about everybody's free and easy use of the word "tranny" (which I thought was fairly obvious from the context), there isn't much I'd actually like to add to a discussion where language like that's the norm. Saying something like "Awesome bigotry, gang" would be a little flippant; and an in-depth discussion of why using that word to discuss trans people is pretty disgusting would be even more off-topic. Suffice it to say that the hate speech bandied about really shouldn't be part of this discussion.

And hey, since you started this, thanks for taking this thread in a direction it was never headed in the first place. Congratulations.

[AprilMaybe]

You should add something to the discussion about Goldman in addition to slapping wrists with a ruler, otherwise you come off merely as one of those cooks who criticize spelling/grammatical errors as an indication that the end of civilization is nigh.

I'm sorry, but the use of words like that effectively nullifies intelligent discussion - they lower the conversation into the gutter, and that's something that should be addressed. We're not talking about a typo or a misplaced comma; we're talking about flat-out hurtful, disgusting language.

Is the word derogatory? Maybe it is if you think about it, but I for one wasn't thinking about that as much as I was thinking about and commenting on how Goldman really didn't worry about much other than creating a vibrant street that recently wasn't, and as a consequence many people of different stripes happily coexists. You should focus on that goodness.

Yeah, no. It's not the kind of word that becomes more or less acceptable depending on the context. Using it in a discussion about 13th street is equivalent to using derogatory terms that some throw around when discussing the inhabitants of North Philly, or the Puerto Rican sections of Kensington, or the rest of the Gayborhood. It's ugly no matter how you intend it.

I'd also argue that the term, if used derogatorily, was in this case used to generically to identify all stripes of people who once frequented that strip to solicit sex and engage in it in sometimes openly and dangerous ways. It was not used to insult a physical/psychological individuality. My echoing the term Trannies was a way of identifying the differences without saying so, but obviously that was too subtle for you.

OK. You could have said "hookers", "prostitutes" or "sex workers", all of which would have been a more accurate description. You didn't, though; you used "tranny" to "generically identify all stripes of people who once frequented that strip to solicit sex and engage in it in sometimes openly and dangerous ways", tarring a ton of people with a broad brush and employing hate speech to do it. That's not subtle; that's lazy.

And hey, since you started this, thanks for taking this thread in a direction it was never headed in the first place. Congratulations.

It got where we are now once you decided to throw slurs around; it hasn't budged since.

[Hospitalitygirl]

So...the 13th Street transformation. Good stuff. Great development on that stretch of street. 15 years ago you would never have seen a Springboard open there. And Goldman lived something I learned long ago--first the restaurateurs come, then the retailers.

[Jayfar]

I'm sorry, but the use of words like that effectively nullifies intelligent discussion - they lower the conversation into the gutter, and that's something that should be addressed. We're not talking about a typo or a misplaced comma; we're talking about flat-out hurtful, disgusting language.

Oh Christ-on-a-crutch, we're really not that anal-retentively politically correct here. Get over it. Tranny is just a handy, catch-all slang term for all of the following, per wikipedia:

Tranny - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Society and culture

Slang term for:
Transvestite, a person who wears clothing traditionally associated with the opposite sex
Transgender, a general term applied to a variety of individuals, behaviors, and groups involving tendencies to vary from culturally conventional gender roles
Transsexual, an individual who identifies with a gender inconsistent or not culturally associated with his or her assigned sex
Trans woman, a male-to-female transsexual or transgender person
Trans man, a female-to-male transsexual or transgender person

We now rejoin the discussion already in progress of what a mensch Tony Goldman was.

[Hospitalitygirl]

I'm sorry, but the use of words like that effectively nullifies intelligent discussion - they lower the conversation into the gutter, and that's something that should be addressed. We're not talking about a typo or a misplaced comma; we're talking about flat-out hurtful, disgusting language.



Yeah, no. It's not the kind of word that becomes more or less acceptable depending on the context. Using it in a discussion about 13th street is equivalent to using derogatory terms that some throw around when discussing the inhabitants of North Philly, or the Puerto Rican sections of Kensington, or the rest of the Gayborhood. It's ugly no matter how you intend it.



OK. You could have said "hookers", "prostitutes" or "sex workers", all of which would have been a more accurate description. You didn't, though; you used "tranny" to "generically identify all stripes of people who once frequented that strip to solicit sex and engage in it in sometimes openly and dangerous ways", tarring a ton of people with a broad brush and employing hate speech to do it. That's not subtle; that's lazy.



It got where we are now once you decided to throw slurs around; it hasn't budged since.

Listen Mister Sister, unbunch your freaking panties.

[AprilMaybe]

Listen Mister Sister, unbunch your freaking panties.

...And now you sink to personal insults, right after you attempted to steer the thread back on track. Classy.

[CHIOSSO]

Philadelphiaspeaks the last bastion of the liberal gay homophobes.

[Cro Burnham]

Listen Mister Sister, unbunch your freaking panties.

C'mon, this is very funny.

Some people really need to get a sense of humor.

[thoth]

Hahaha

have you ever actually met a transsexual or transvestite?

I'm sorry, but the use of words like that effectively nullifies intelligent discussion - they lower the conversation into the gutter, and that's something that should be addressed. We're not talking about a typo or a misplaced comma; we're talking about flat-out hurtful, disgusting language.



Yeah, no. It's not the kind of word that becomes more or less acceptable depending on the context. Using it in a discussion about 13th street is equivalent to using derogatory terms that some throw around when discussing the inhabitants of North Philly, or the Puerto Rican sections of Kensington, or the rest of the Gayborhood. It's ugly no matter how you intend it.



OK. You could have said "hookers", "prostitutes" or "sex workers", all of which would have been a more accurate description. You didn't, though; you used "tranny" to "generically identify all stripes of people who once frequented that strip to solicit sex and engage in it in sometimes openly and dangerous ways", tarring a ton of people with a broad brush and employing hate speech to do it. That's not subtle; that's lazy.



It got where we are now once you decided to throw slurs around; it hasn't budged since.

[Jayfar]

Tony Goldman, SoHo Pioneer, Dies at 68 - NY Times

Surprisingly, NY's 'paper of record' didn't get around to publishing their obit till Saturday and they got it a little twisted regarding his role in Philadelphia:

"Although some of his bets proved disappointing, most notably a joint development effort with the Archon Group in Boston, he had successes in addition to South Beach and SoHo. He helped bring life back to the Rittenhouse Square area of Philadelphia and to Wall Street after dark in the 1990s by opening the Wall Street Kitchen and Bar in the Banknote building and the Stone Street Tavern, as well as loft apartments. In his last years, he focused on developing Wynwood, an arts warehouse district in Miami."

I emailed the Times reporter, but I don't see a correction yet.

From: Kaufman, Leslie <leslie@nytimes.com>
Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2012 at 9:35 AM
Subject: RE: READER MAIL: Leslie Kaufman
To: <jayfar@######.com>


will look into it. thanks
Leslie Kaufman
National Environment Reporter
The New York Times
________________________________________
From: ordercs@nytimes.com [ordercs@nytimes.com]
Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 3:35 AM
To: Kaufman, Leslie
Subject: READER MAIL: Leslie Kaufman

Email: jayfar@######.com
URL:Tony Goldman correction
Comments:Tony Goldman had no properties in the Rittenhouse Square section of Center City Philadelphia. Most of his work was on 13th Street between Walnut and Chestnut, a neighborhood some have begun calling Midtown Village and also considered part of the 'Gayborhood.' Many credit him with giving that neighborhood a cachet comparable to the upscale Rittenhouse Square.

[MarketStEl]

Tony Goldman, SoHo Pioneer, Dies at 68 - NY Times

Surprisingly, NY's 'paper of record' didn't get around to publishing their obit till Saturday and they got it a little twisted regarding his role in Philadelphia:

"Although some of his bets proved disappointing, most notably a joint development effort with the Archon Group in Boston, he had successes in addition to South Beach and SoHo. He helped bring life back to the Rittenhouse Square area of Philadelphia and to Wall Street after dark in the 1990s by opening the Wall Street Kitchen and Bar in the Banknote building and the Stone Street Tavern, as well as loft apartments. In his last years, he focused on developing Wynwood, an arts warehouse district in Miami."

I emailed the Times reporter, but I don't see a correction yet.

From: Kaufman, Leslie <leslie@nytimes.com>
Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2012 at 9:35 AM
Subject: RE: READER MAIL: Leslie Kaufman
To: <jayfar@######.com>


will look into it. thanks
Leslie Kaufman
National Environment Reporter
The New York Times
________________________________________
From: ordercs@nytimes.com [ordercs@nytimes.com]
Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 3:35 AM
To: Kaufman, Leslie
Subject: READER MAIL: Leslie Kaufman

Email: jayfar@######.com
URL:Tony Goldman correction
Comments:Tony Goldman had no properties in the Rittenhouse Square section of Center City Philadelphia. Most of his work was on 13th Street between Walnut and Chestnut, a neighborhood some have begun calling Midtown Village and also considered part of the 'Gayborhood.' Many credit him with giving that neighborhood a cachet comparable to the upscale Rittenhouse Square.

You left out the term for the general neighborhood encompassing both, the analogue to Rittenhouse Square: Washington Square West.

And the cachet that attaches to "Midtown Village" is quite different from that which attaches to Rittenhouse Square, IMO. Nobody would use the word "tony" to describe Wash West or any part of it the way they would attach that term to "Rittenhouse Square," for instance. I'd describe Midtown Village as a little funkier than Rittenhouse.

Oh, and since I mentioned it upthread: What we ran on the RE Blog was not so much an obit as an appreciation:

The king of SoHo, South Beach and Midtown Village dies | Philadelphia Real Estate Blog