Renewbold project by LPMG/Interface

**phillyaggie** · 06-24-2012, 12:23 PM

What do you guys think of this project?
Tonight At SPTR: ReNEWBOLD Launch Party | NakedPhilly

Green, Modern, Affordable Development by Postgreen Homes - PROJECTS - Philadelphia Real Estate

And the people behind this project. A friend who's a real estate agent sent me a listing of one of the properties in this development that seems to meet all my check-marks for what I want, and more: 3 bed/2 bath, about 1500 sq ft, close to Broad St subway station, even comes with super-green amenities including rood deck/green roof, and also one car parking space offstreet.

I just wonder about the location, and paying $325k. I have seen rehabbed properties listed for about that much, but much further north, and offering a little more room, between Washington and South Sts, west of Broad... which gives more convenience for my needs. So the price for this project is for brand new construction? Ultra-green (project is supposed to get LEED Platinum rating) construction? The developers' brand name-- you know they are good and not fly-by-night or mom-and-pop rehabbers that might cut corners?

Just wondering what you guys think. I like the concept.

**raider.adam** · 06-24-2012, 01:21 PM

LPMG is John Longacre's company. The same guy who owns South Philly Tap Room and American Sardine Bar. He also has years of experience doing development projects in the area. He brings good products.

**the mule** · 06-25-2012, 01:13 AM

Development of that parcel has been in the works for ages with a few underwhelming proposals in the past. I was excited to see the partnership with Postgreen and finally have new development in the neighborhood that wasn't a rehash of the cookie cutter brick/stucco bay development all over the rest of the area. Developing that parcel with something new and exciting would definitely give some momentum to the central/southern portion of Newbold/Point Breeze.

With that said this sure does seem to be slow in getting off the ground. Seeing cars parked all over the dirt lot is almost worse than looking at the decaying Drexel School. It looks like there are going to be at least 2 phases, if not more, and the first phase seems to be taking quite a while to get started. I'm guessing they need to get most, if not all of the units under agreement before they can start construction, but according to their website only 2 of the first 6 units are reserved still. Unfortunately the lot isn't subdivided so these are going to be condos. Even if their construction lender didn't impose the presale requirement on them, any buyers hoping to obtain FHA financing would need to have the majority of units under contract to get a mortgage, so they'd need to line up buyers early just to minimize their risk anyway.

That gets to the other downside - not only are they priced much higher than anything else in the immediate area, they're condos with an HOA fee on top of the mortgage payment. Low utility bills don't come close to offsetting the premium you'll end up paying for these houses. I like what Postgreen is all about and I like their product, but I don't know about paying $325k for a base house where the cabinets are from Ikea and your light fixtures are all exposed CFLs. The green roofs and off street parking are definitely worth something, and the most often overlooked benefit of the superior thermal enclosure and high efficiency systems they provide is COMFORT. The 2 bedroom houses are a better deal, but 2 bedroom houses are a tough sell at any price. They've had success with generally the same finishes and pricing elsewhere, so hopefully they get some more buyers here soon and get phase 1 rolling.

I don't want to sound too negative, I very much want them to succeed and there are plenty of positives to their product that I'm omitting, which they outline pretty clearly on their own website. I also think it's a great location, and in many ways a better location than the northern end of Point Breeze & Newbold. The surrounding blocks are generally very solid, have been continuously occupied for ages, and there are very few vacant parcels to be found. It's 2 blocks from the Tasker-Morris BSL stop, right on the 2 route on 16th & 17th, and 1-2 blocks from the 29 on Tasker & Morris. It's also closer walking distance to some neighborhood fixtures like SPTR, Circles, Hardena, Ultimo, & Brew.

The success of this project would really raise the stakes for the surrounding blocks and also set the bar for other development in the area. Not everything has to try and mimic the workforce red brick houses of the early 20th century, not that much of the new construction looks anything like it anyway. Some variety would really go a long way in the neighborhood, and this project will certainly introduce that.

If I didn't already have my hands full with other real estate I'd seriously consider one of those houses - specifically lot G. I'd be a little annoyed at having to pony up to move up past the base finishes, and I would immediately swap out the Ikea cabinets, but if you're someone who believes in the potential of the neighborhood (and I am), those prices might seem like a deal in a few years.

**phillyaggie** · 06-25-2012, 02:53 PM

Thanks for that great writeup, mule. I think it captures a lot of my thinking on these homes. I guess you think the location is better than something further north along 16th because of all the restaurants and amenities across Broad St and along Passyunk Ave? To me, the east of Broad seems a safer bet, obviously... but now, development is moving west of Broad, so this is a good spot to own. Not sure if 325k discounts anything into the future, though, for at least 10+ years I'd say-- what with the economy and all.. so even if development continues west of Broad (and I'm thinking it will, due to continued demand to live in the cit, notwithstanding the city government raising taxes and fees all the time), 325k seems to capture all that extra amenities and positive effects of future development.

**the mule** · 06-25-2012, 09:45 PM

Originally Posted by phillyaggie

Thanks for that great writeup, mule. I think it captures a lot of my thinking on these homes. I guess you think the location is better than something further north along 16th because of all the restaurants and amenities across Broad St and along Passyunk Ave? To me, the east of Broad seems a safer bet, obviously... but now, development is moving west of Broad, so this is a good spot to own. Not sure if 325k discounts anything into the future, though, for at least 10+ years I'd say-- what with the economy and all.. so even if development continues west of Broad (and I'm thinking it will, due to continued demand to live in the cit, notwithstanding the city government raising taxes and fees all the time), 325k seems to capture all that extra amenities and positive effects of future development.

Yeah farther north on 16th street you end up being surrounded by Universal's affordable housing projects. Bias against affordable housing aside, those houses are just damn ugly. There are also a bunch of automotive garages up there and sketchy blocks like Sydenham. Of course the highest value houses in the neighborhood are also mere blocks away, so there are some tradeoffs to be made.

There also isn't much in the way of destination businesses up there except American Sardine Bar, which I do love, but it stands alone right now. Farther south near Renewbold you can walk across Broad and come to the heart of Passyunk Ave just a little easier than you could if you were at say 16th and Latona.

Sure east of Broad is a safer bet, but you're going to get far less house for your dollar there. 325k east of Broad will get you a 2 story home, often with a lot of original details, maybe some owner upgrades. A few full blown rehabs are there but not as common. Then of course your tax bill is likely to be much higher, so it's not quite an apples to apples comparison.

Development west of Broad is going to continue, and average prices will rise, but there is so much vacant land and housing stock available for development that I wouldn't expect to see much of a surge in prices on the high end of the spectrum for a while. So 325k doesn't have a ton of upside to it if you're treating it like an investment to flip in a few years, but if you're planning on sticking around it's a different story. I didn't expect prices to exceed 300k in Point Breeze so quickly either though, so I might be a little more guarded in my enthusiasm than others.

The more I think about it though, that off street parking option is pretty easily overlooked. Parking isn't bad in the neighborhood now, but as development continues it's sure to be more difficult, and off street parking is fairly rare right now.

**Malloy** · 06-25-2012, 10:06 PM

You can get a 3 story East of Broad for 325k in a section that is much 'nicer' than this area.

Originally Posted by the mule

Sure east of Broad is a safer bet, but you're going to get far less house for your dollar there. 325k east of Broad will get you a 2 story home, often with a lot of original details, maybe some owner upgrades. A few full blown rehabs are there but not as common. Then of course your tax bill is likely to be much higher, so it's not quite an apples to apples comparison.

Development west of Broad is going to continue, and average prices will rise, but there is so much vacant land and housing stock available for development that I wouldn't expect to see much of a surge in prices on the high end of the spectrum for a while. So 325k doesn't have a ton of upside to it if you're treating it like an investment to flip in a few years, but if you're planning on sticking around it's a different story. I didn't expect prices to exceed 300k in Point Breeze so quickly either though, so I might be a little more guarded in my enthusiasm than others.

The more I think about it though, that off street parking option is pretty easily overlooked. Parking isn't bad in the neighborhood now, but as development continues it's sure to be more difficult, and off street parking is fairly rare right now.

**raider.adam** · 06-26-2012, 06:42 AM

Originally Posted by the mule

So 325k doesn't have a ton of upside to it if you're treating it like an investment to flip in a few years, but if you're planning on sticking around it's a different story.

Of course if you are buying new construction at market price as a flipping strategy, you probably aren't doing it right.

**dollyjackson** · 06-26-2012, 06:49 AM

Good day! I realize this is kind of off topic however I was wondering which blog platform are you using for this website? Thank you!

**lewblum** · 06-26-2012, 07:38 AM

Originally Posted by Malloy

You can get a 3 story East of Broad for 325k in a section that is much 'nicer' than this area.

+1

or a rehab in Newbold for much less.

i personally would take a well done rehab over new construction any day of the week.

**BarryG** · 06-26-2012, 07:45 AM

There are some nice blocks south of Snyder too, between 10th and Broad. Intact neighborhood with some nice houses and walking distance to E. Passyunk Ave, plus decent/convenient places even closer, like Los Gallos, Bomb-Bomb, Starbucks, La Rosa Pizza, 7-11, a bunch of banks, etc. Very underrated area.

**lighterthief** · 06-26-2012, 08:05 AM

you end up paying a premium for snappy trendy new houses. If new and trendy is important PG hits a price point that makes it more accessible than most and while i am not a huge fan of the "interface look" it's not worse than those hideous bay front brick/stucco spec boxes that are popping up like weeds all over the city. Personally at that cost I think a nice rehab is the better deal. I feel like these houses may look and feel very dated fairly quickly. I think the site design is nice though with the parking in the back rather than garage fronts and they have been getting better at detailing that fiber cement siding so hopefully it will look better than some of their earlier efforts.

**raider.adam** · 06-26-2012, 08:51 AM

Originally Posted by dollyjackson

Good day! I realize this is kind of off topic however I was wondering which blog platform are you using for this website? Thank you!

Kind of? Try this part of the forum: Site Support, Suggestion and Comment Box You'll likely have a better chance of getting the response you are looking for.

Originally Posted by lewblum

+1

or a rehab in Newbold for much less.

i personally would take a well done rehab over new construction any day of the week.

What needs to keep in mind is, it isn't just new construction. They are LEED Platinum new construction. It is equivalent to saying you prefer a 3 year old Corolla to a Prius. It's a different target for sales.

**the mule** · 06-26-2012, 11:54 AM

Originally Posted by Malloy

You can get a 3 story East of Broad for 325k in a section that is much 'nicer' than this area.

Depends where we're talking east of Broad. I was limiting my scope to the area immediately east of Broad, west of Passyunk and wasn't too clear about that. There are exactly 4 three story houses under 325k listed there, only 1 is a rehab, but with a fugly stucco front, and another is a 6 year old unimpressive new construction building. But yeah you can go even farther east and find some nice 3 stories in nicer areas closer to Pennsport for example.

Originally Posted by raider.adam

Of course if you are buying new construction at market price as a flipping strategy, you probably aren't doing it right.

I'm not suggesting an investment strategy based on buying a NC home and turning it around for a profit, but people in gentrifying neighborhoods generally expect some kind of property appreciation over time which is part of the appeal of move to such a neighborhood. A lot of people don't stay in a home longer than 5-7 years, and if that is a possibility for someone purchasing a 325k home in a transitional neighborhood, there isn't a ton of upside in the short run.

Originally Posted by lewblum

+1

or a rehab in Newbold for much less.

i personally would take a well done rehab over new construction any day of the week.

Indeed, I'm of the same opinion. A well done rehab has a lot of positives, not to mention character, that aren't always found in new construction homes. On the other hand, there are a lot of sins that are often covered up in otherwise nice looking rehabs that escape even the most well meaning L&I inspectors.

The real kicker though is that if you're actually concerned with your environmental footprint and living "green", a rehab is really the appropriate choice.

**Malloy** · 06-26-2012, 12:14 PM

I think they look cool. The roof space will be amazing, assuming the grass grows properly. The parking is a great feature too. They are small, the 2br units seem to be 800 something sqft (not counting basement)?? They are expensive for the area, esp since the developer refers to them as 'beginner homes'...but someone who can afford $270k for a nicely optioned 2br can possibly stretch into the $339k for a nice 3br with options if they really want something unique. These are unique. The buyer will not make $$$ on them for a long time, I think that is a given.

They will stick out like a sore thumb as this immediate part of SPhilly is dominated by 1ksqft 3/1 2 story brick homes. Very few open lots, so that will be the over whelming 'style' of the area indefinitely. There are larger brick 3 story homes close, but again, they are brick. NoLibs is cool bc there were a ton of open lots that were developed, introducing cool new styles - it works well. Not sure if this is a bad thing for Renewbold....hell it may be a good thing. The colors may look dated on 10 years, who knows.

Aggie, you seem to have a strong opinion of postgreen. Why? As far as I know they only built a few homes in Kensington. That does not mean those homes are not good...but it shows they have limited experience.

**phillyaggie** · 06-26-2012, 12:29 PM

Originally Posted by raider.adam

Of course if you are buying new construction at market price as a flipping strategy, you probably aren't doing it right.

to be clear, no, I'm not thinking of this as a flipping opportunity. I just was wondering where the prices can go when they're already 325k in that neighborhood... basically, if i do have to sell in a few years because of life circumstances, can i at least expect to get 300k on it? i don't see the market pricing homes significantly higher price points in that neighborhood, so the comps are going to be tough.

basically, it's the issue of choosing: do you want to buy the priciest house in an average neighborhood, or an average house in a pricey neighborhood.

**phillyaggie** · 06-26-2012, 12:31 PM

Originally Posted by lighterthief

you end up paying a premium for snappy trendy new houses. If new and trendy is important PG hits a price point that makes it more accessible than most and while i am not a huge fan of the "interface look" it's not worse than those hideous bay front brick/stucco spec boxes that are popping up like weeds all over the city. Personally at that cost I think a nice rehab is the better deal. I feel like these houses may look and feel very dated fairly quickly. I think the site design is nice though with the parking in the back rather than garage fronts and they have been getting better at detailing that fiber cement siding so hopefully it will look better than some of their earlier efforts.

i appreciate this feedback. thanks!

**phillyaggie** · 06-26-2012, 12:35 PM

Originally Posted by the mule

Depends where we're talking east of Broad. I was limiting my scope to the area immediately east of Broad, west of Passyunk and wasn't too clear about that. There are exactly 4 three story houses under 325k listed there, only 1 is a rehab, but with a fugly stucco front, and another is a 6 year old unimpressive new construction building. But yeah you can go even farther east and find some nice 3 stories in nicer areas closer to Pennsport for example.

I'm not suggesting an investment strategy based on buying a NC home and turning it around for a profit, but people in gentrifying neighborhoods generally expect some kind of property appreciation over time which is part of the appeal of move to such a neighborhood. A lot of people don't stay in a home longer than 5-7 years, and if that is a possibility for someone purchasing a 325k home in a transitional neighborhood, there isn't a ton of upside in the short run.

Indeed, I'm of the same opinion. A well done rehab has a lot of positives, not to mention character, that aren't always found in new construction homes. On the other hand, there are a lot of sins that are often covered up in otherwise nice looking rehabs that escape even the most well meaning L&I inspectors.

The real kicker though is that if you're actually concerned with your environmental footprint and living "green", a rehab is really the appropriate choice.

yep; rehabbed property means far less of the pollutants produced as byproduct of making things like cement, concrete, and bricks. and you stated the point i was trying to make quite well. i'm not looking to move in 5-7 years again, but i might have to. and it would be nice to have the property sell for at least how much i paid if not a little more... but i don't see that happening in lower Newbold, at this price point and at this time in the economy.

But yes, I seem to get attracted to new construction, although I fell in love with a couple of Victorians I saw out in Univ City too due to their impeccable details. I just don't know what a rehab is "covering up" if anything-- and that's the biggest concern. Apparently it is for you as well, and you seem to be into real estate so you would know, and yet you too have that concern. Good to know and to keep in mind.

**Malloy** · 06-26-2012, 02:25 PM

I bet it will take 10 years to net a decent profit on it.

Originally Posted by phillyaggie

to be clear, no, I'm not thinking of this as a flipping opportunity. I just was wondering where the prices can go when they're already 325k in that neighborhood... basically, if i do have to sell in a few years because of life circumstances, can i at least expect to get 300k on it? i don't see the market pricing homes significantly higher price points in that neighborhood, so the comps are going to be tough.

basically, it's the issue of choosing: do you want to buy the priciest house in an average neighborhood, or an average house in a pricey neighborhood.

**raider.adam** · 06-26-2012, 03:36 PM

Originally Posted by phillyaggie

yep; rehabbed property means far less of the pollutants produced as byproduct of making things like cement, concrete, and bricks. and you stated the point i was trying to make quite well. i'm not looking to move in 5-7 years again, but i might have to. and it would be nice to have the property sell for at least how much i paid if not a little more... but i don't see that happening in lower Newbold, at this price point and at this time in the economy.

But yes, I seem to get attracted to new construction, although I fell in love with a couple of Victorians I saw out in Univ City too due to their impeccable details. I just don't know what a rehab is "covering up" if anything-- and that's the biggest concern. Apparently it is for you as well, and you seem to be into real estate so you would know, and yet you too have that concern. Good to know and to keep in mind.

I'm not sure the point of the rehabbed verse new construction environmental argument. Are you implying there is no need for new housing stock?

**phillyaggie** · 06-26-2012, 03:58 PM

Originally Posted by raider.adam

I'm not sure the point of the rehabbed verse new construction environmental argument. Are you implying there is no need for new housing stock?

Not implying anything of that sort. But it is generally true that reduce, reuse, recycle is better than something brand new which is made in some "green" fashion. Another example is in energy: conserving a gallon of gas or a KW of electricity is environmentally better than producing more power from solar or more fuel from plants. None of it obviates the need for new supplies, of course. But conservation doesn't get as much rep as it probably should.

Materials that go into construction are some of the biggest air polluting industries known to man. So to the extent that materials already there could be repurposed/rehabbed with minimal additions, is good for the environment.