Cranes on the Horizon

[billy ross]

Phila.'s aerial act a good sign

Does this mean that our recovery is getting legs? 8 residential complexes. 26 large projects with no overt subsidies. Things are looking up.

The sky's the limit, as they say.

[mixiboi]

ITs nice we survive the recession so well that I still fear a snapback. But the more cranes I see downtown every time I go down there, it feels like we doge the bullet..unlike say Vegas...

[billy ross]

ITs nice we survive the recession so well that I still fear a snapback. But the more cranes I see downtown every time I go down there, it feels like we doge the bullet..unlike say Vegas...

We're still not quite booming yet. Too much of our city is fallow. Still, we're recovering. Economic activity is what will cure our ailments. We need to use the Navy Yard, Temple, University City, etc. as the paradigms for the Delaware waterfront, the Northeast Corridor, etc. I took the train between Philly and NYC Thursday and today, transferring at North Philadelphia today, and I can say for sure that we're far from our potential. In the Boston area all of the old mill buildings have new windows - some even have parking garages - and they are clearly paying their taxes. Derelict ones are few and far between. In Philly just as clearly there is a huge stock of derelict buildings which clearly aren't paying their taxes. We need to fire the do-nothings who have run our sheriff's department into the ground and get these places that are delinquent paying taxes again. There is a buyer for the Lorraine Hotel who wants to restore that magnificent building and he can't buy it because he can't get clear title because the sheriff's department allowed many hundreds of thousands of back taxes to build up. That building should have been auctioned for taxes years ago. Meanwhile he waits and the hulk of the Lorraine sits. We shouldn't need the mayor to get involved to cut through the red tape. The demand is there, but we have a supply side problem.

[phillyaggie]

sunshine pumpers, unite!

[Jerry19127]

We're still not quite booming yet. Too much of our city is fallow. Still, we're recovering. Economic activity is what will cure our ailments. We need to use the Navy Yard, Temple, University City, etc. as the paradigms for the Delaware waterfront, the Northeast Corridor, etc. I took the train between Philly and NYC Thursday and today, transferring at North Philadelphia today, and I can say for sure that we're far from our potential. In the Boston area all of the old mill buildings have new windows - some even have parking garages - and they are clearly paying their taxes. Derelict ones are few and far between. In Philly just as clearly there is a huge stock of derelict buildings which clearly aren't paying their taxes. We need to fire the do-nothings who have run our sheriff's department into the ground and get these places that are delinquent paying taxes again. There is a buyer for the Lorraine Hotel who wants to restore that magnificent building and he can't buy it because he can't get clear title because the sheriff's department allowed many hundreds of thousands of back taxes to build up. That building should have been auctioned for taxes years ago. Meanwhile he waits and the hulk of the Lorraine sits. We shouldn't need the mayor to get involved to cut through the red tape. The demand is there, but we have a supply side problem.

Wait...I thought you hated Boston and said they are in no league with Philly's prowess.

[MariusPontmercy]

Wait...I thought you hated Boston and said they are in no league with Philly's prowess.

Philly has more potential than Boston in terms of what we're starting off with. Some of the institutions in Philly can't be found in Boston, at least in the size we have them. I'm thinking cultural, architectural, and educational amenities which Boston has, but Philly's are all bigger/we have more of them. So the potential is there... but its just that: potential, which is a scary word. Whether or not that is fully realized remains to be seen, but I have to admit, the signs look pretty positive. Boston has already realized a lot of their latent potential, and are slowly growing from there it seems.

[OffenseTaken]

Gillen said he'll be fully impressed when he sees people building market-rate office spaces.

"Philly hasn't had any such development on a meaningful scale in 20 years," he said. "When we start adding new office space that doesn't require any special tax breaks or subsidies, that will be the true mark of commercial building revival."

This is, I think, the smartest thing that was said in the article so I'm just reproducing it here in bold.

[raider.adam]

This is, I think, the smartest thing that was said in the article so I'm just reproducing it here in bold.

I concur.

[Jerry19127]

Philly has more potential than Boston in terms of what we're starting off with. Some of the institutions in Philly can't be found in Boston, at least in the size we have them. I'm thinking cultural, architectural, and educational amenities which Boston has, but Philly's are all bigger/we have more of them. So the potential is there... but its just that: potential, which is a scary word. Whether or not that is fully realized remains to be seen, but I have to admit, the signs look pretty positive. Boston has already realized a lot of their latent potential, and are slowly growing from there it seems.

Boston proper is 48 sq miles and Philly has over 140 sq miles. If you drew the same circle around Boston, it would include Cambridge etc. Penis contest aside, Boston is cleaner, has almost zero yes zero blight,less crime, better retail, better regional transit, more corporate presence, less AA poverty & crime (deterrent in itself), and is the center of a regional (New England) economy. It measures up wayyyy better than Philly in almost every category. Potential means nothing in this economy.

[eldondre]

Boston proper is 48 sq miles and Philly has over 140 sq miles. If you drew the same circle around Boston, it would include Cambridge etc. Penis contest aside, Boston is cleaner, has almost zero yes zero blight,less crime, better retail, better regional transit, more corporate presence, less AA poverty & crime (deterrent in itself), and is the center of a regional (New England) economy. It measures up wayyyy better than Philly in almost every category. Potential means nothing in this economy.

I think mkt st el has disproven the claim about better regional transit a few times. I do think they have better city transit. Philly is already a larger place than boston and the city does have the potential to be a much bigger player though, as you note, it does have its problems. actually, potential can mean opportunity. even today philly is a more interesting place than boston.

[Naveen]

Boston proper is 48 sq miles and Philly has over 140 sq miles. If you drew the same circle around Boston, it would include Cambridge etc. Penis contest aside, Boston is cleaner, has almost zero yes zero blight,less crime, better retail, better regional transit, more corporate presence, less AA poverty & crime (deterrent in itself), and is the center of a regional (New England) economy. It measures up wayyyy better than Philly in almost every category. Potential means nothing in this economy.

I don't think anything you list can't be dealt with, or isn't as important as you're making it out to be, except:

Boston is...the center of a regional (New England) economy

That we're not a regional center is our biggest disadvantage, IMO. That said, the "sub-region" of the PA/SoNJ/DE tri-state area is clearly very strong; if not, we'd have gone the way of Baltimore or Detroit long ago.

[mixiboi]

Im sure many can argue that in the 1980s we were heading that way too, but luckily our 1990s were much more brighter...

[billy ross]

Boston proper is 48 sq miles and Philly has over 140 sq miles. If you drew the same circle around Boston, it would include Cambridge etc. Penis contest aside, Boston is cleaner, has almost zero yes zero blight,less crime, better retail, better regional transit, more corporate presence, less AA poverty & crime (deterrent in itself), and is the center of a regional (New England) economy. It measures up wayyyy better than Philly in almost every category. Potential means nothing in this economy.

Boston may be at 90% of its potential. Philly may be at 40% of its potential. Clearly there's more opportunity here. That's why the big people here are still in their first generation - they haven't died off yet. Steven Starr, Bart Blatstein, Blumenfeld - these guys are still very much vigorous. I spend way more time in Boston than I'd like to. Boston is staid, money-driven, and lacking in imagination. Philly is and has been a city of visionaries. It's what keeps us fun and interesting, and relevant.

Train service in Boston blows, by the way. The only reason they have any electrification is because we jammed it down their throats. It's mostly slow, infrequent diesel service.

PA's economy made Philly wealthy the first time around. Then coal/oil, steel, and rail all collapsed simultaneously. Around that time Philly began declining. Now PA is rising from its slumber - I personally see a second boom happening in PA. I've spent the past week cris-crossing New England, and MA, ME, VT, and NH don't have the ability to change the Boston game in the way that oil and gas combined with political reform have the ability to recast Philly's economy. Boston will see continued incremental change. In Philly and in PA we have the ability and the will to change how the game is played.

[phillyaggie]

^ disagree. Nothing much I see about oil and gas in PA has connection to Philly or Philly-based entrepreneurs, industry, or finance. If anyone is benefiting/will benefit from shale gas/oil boom, it may be Pittsburgh and the other, smaller and rural communities out in the western portion of the state. Pittsburgh based companies are quite active in Marcellus, with names like CNX/Consol, EQT, and many other independents such as Cabot Oil & Gas, Chesapeake, Range, and others having presence in Pitt or nearby towns... not much in Philly, because there is hardly any action here. Not to mention law firms providing services to oil and gas are also doing quite well in Pittsburgh... the biggest ones like K&L Gates are expanding even more and poaching lawyers from Philly.

Good for Pittsburgh, no doubt. But doesn't do much for Philly, to be honest. At least I don't see it as far as direct impact on jobs and the local metro economy.

[eldondre]

PA's economy made Philly wealthy the first time around. Then coal/oil, steel, and rail all collapsed simultaneously. Around that time Philly began declining. Now PA is rising from its slumber - I personally see a second boom happening in PA. I've spent the past week cris-crossing New England, and MA, ME, VT, and NH don't have the ability to change the Boston game in the way that oil and gas combined with political reform have the ability to recast Philly's economy. Boston will see continued incremental change. In Philly and in PA we have the ability and the will to change how the game is played.

as you probably know, I agree with you here. the state does seem to be slowly awakening from a long slumber. this state has a large number of places that fit the new reality, imo.

^ disagree. Nothing much I see about oil and gas in PA has connection to Philly or Philly-based entrepreneurs, industry, or finance. If anyone is benefiting/will benefit from shale gas/oil boom, it may be Pittsburgh and the other, smaller and rural communities out in the western portion of the state. Pittsburgh based companies are quite active in Marcellus, with names like CNX/Consol, EQT, and many other independents such as Cabot Oil & Gas, Chesapeake, Range, and others having presence in Pitt or nearby towns... not much in Philly, because there is hardly any action here. Not to mention law firms providing services to oil and gas are also doing quite well in Pittsburgh... the biggest ones like K&L Gates are expanding even more and poaching lawyers from Philly.

Good for Pittsburgh, no doubt. But doesn't do much for Philly, to be honest. At least I don't see it as far as direct impact on jobs and the local metro economy.

I think you're missing the forest for the trees. for years the state was in decline, hanging onto the philadelphia area like an anchor (and Philadelphia itself was struggling with the loss of its major industry and rail). is dallas dragging the rest of the state with it? no. a revived pittsburgh (and the gas boom isn't just pittsburgh, but it's brought life to long forgotten areas...I remember seeing an article about a Texas guy who'd spent the last 15 years in the middle east who was transferred to Bradford...he said he's glad to finally be home and to see grass and trees). a revived pittsburgh is good for PA and Philly. on top of that, the state's business tax burden continues to decline. Philadelphia itself is going through a period of restructuring but if you look at employment numbers, it's not just pharma weakness, but the layoffs in education that have been depressing job numbers. I'd also point out that the shale gas boom is now what is driving the future for marcus hook. and to the topic of the thread, if post can lower the cost of construction it could usher in a mini boom itself.

[phillyaggie]

^ not missing anything. bross made this statement:

PA's economy made Philly wealthy the first time around. Then coal/oil, steel, and rail all collapsed simultaneously. Around that time Philly began declining. Now PA is rising from its slumber - I personally see a second boom happening in PA.


It sounds absurd to me in the context of shale development. PA's natural resource economy made Philly wealthy first time around because we built canals on the Schuylkill to bring coal to our ports, to run heavy industry in the city and to export it from our ports. This time around, there is no such connection to Philly and instead the connections are to Pitt and other locales where drilling is occurring.

Is PA using natural resource extraction taxes to lower other business taxes? Last I checked, that wasn't happening the way majority of PA residents want it to happen. Corbett may be tinkering with other taxes and reforms, but that's not related to shale. I may have snoozed on the state reducing business tax burden based on shale boom. If anything, Corbett is intent upon giving tax sops to Shell and others to set up new plants in PA. We'll have to see how Marcus Hook refinery actually works out on shale gas-- so far, it's a lot of talk, and the refinery is shut down as of right now. They just signed off on a federal consent decree so I won't say anything further...

I agree it's good that development and jobs are happening in long-depressed parts of the state. But I still don't see a direct connection to Philly, I'm afraid. There may be few consulting jobs, but the field jobs are out west and north of here. of course, environmental hazards are also in those places too...with Philly's impact mainly coming from upstream river waters.

[BarryG]

PGW swearing off shale gas and city polticians bashing fracking doesn't help the industry look towards Philly when they need services, etc.

[eldondre]

^ not missing anything. bross made this statement:

PA's economy made Philly wealthy the first time around. Then coal/oil, steel, and rail all collapsed simultaneously. Around that time Philly began declining. Now PA is rising from its slumber - I personally see a second boom happening in PA.


It sounds absurd to me in the context of shale development. PA's natural resource economy made Philly wealthy first time around because we built canals on the Schuylkill to bring coal to our ports, to run heavy industry in the city and to export it from our ports. This time around, there is no such connection to Philly and instead the connections are to Pitt and other locales where drilling is occurring.

Is PA using natural resource extraction taxes to lower other business taxes? Last I checked, that wasn't happening the way majority of PA residents want it to happen. Corbett may be tinkering with other taxes and reforms, but that's not related to shale. I may have snoozed on the state reducing business tax burden based on shale boom. If anything, Corbett is intent upon giving tax sops to Shell and others to set up new plants in PA. We'll have to see how Marcus Hook refinery actually works out on shale gas-- so far, it's a lot of talk, and the refinery is shut down as of right now. They just signed off on a federal consent decree so I won't say anything further...

I agree it's good that development and jobs are happening in long-depressed parts of the state. But I still don't see a direct connection to Philly, I'm afraid. There may be few consulting jobs, but the field jobs are out west and north of here. of course, environmental hazards are also in those places too...with Philly's impact mainly coming from upstream river waters.

you're all over the place. so do business tax cuts not count if they're not connected to the shale boom? did the state's other booms not make Pittsburgh a wealthy place? your analysis probably misses the biggest of them all, the Pennsylvania railroad. as a legacy of the way they built their system, PA is still home to the most short line railroads in the country.

Sunoco is moving forward with a plan to transport by-products of Marcellus Shale natural gas to Southeastern Pennsylvania by pipeline, potentially fueling new industrial development in beleaguered Marcus HookSunoco Logistics Partners L.P. announced on Thursday a "binding open season" for Marcellus producers to commit themselves to buying capacity on the Mariner East pipeline project. Pipeline companies typically request binding bids only when they are certain that a project will get enough commitments to proceed.The Mariner East project, which calls for repurposing an existing Sunoco pipeline that crosses Pennsylvania, was originally conceived in 2010 as a way to find markets for Marcellus ethane by sending the material to Philadelphia for shipment by sea to Gulf Coast petrochemical plants. Those plants in Texas and Louisiana convert or "crack" ethane into a key ingredient used in the manufacturing of plastics...Marcellus producers have already begun trucking propane to Sunoco's Marcus Hook location for loading on ships for export to Europe,A cross-state pipeline would be able to carry far more fuel to Southeastern Pennsylvania than trucks, requiring construction of a fuel terminal and also potentially a processing plant to separate ethane and propane from natural gas liquids.

Marcellus pipeline project could benefit Marcus Hook - Philly.com

[raider.adam]

It sounds absurd to me in the context of shale development. PA's natural resource economy made Philly wealthy first time around because we built canals on the Schuylkill to bring coal to our ports, to run heavy industry in the city and to export it from our ports. This time around, there is no such connection to Philly and instead the connections are to Pitt and other locales where drilling is occurring.

I agree with a chunk of this. Natural gas and energy is going to help PA because the cost of energy required to run manufacturing will be stable. But since manufacturing resurgence will most likely happen outside the urban cores, the immediate impact won't be Philadelphia. Where Philadelphia, and Pittsburgh, benefit is the service sector for those companies: legal, financial, consulting, etc. Pretty much Philly and Pitt will be "we are happy to help the rest of PA use their new found wealth".

Is PA using natural resource extraction taxes to lower other business taxes? Last I checked, that wasn't happening the way majority of PA residents want it to happen. Corbett may be tinkering with other taxes and reforms, but that's not related to shale. I may have snoozed on the state reducing business tax burden based on shale boom. If anything, Corbett is intent upon giving tax sops to Shell and others to set up new plants in PA. We'll have to see how Marcus Hook refinery actually works out on shale gas-- so far, it's a lot of talk, and the refinery is shut down as of right now. They just signed off on a federal consent decree so I won't say anything further...

The abridged story is that Republicans in the General Assembly would be for excise taxes if that revenue would be to lower other taxes 9bcorporate net for example). The Democrats in the General Assembly want the excise taxes to be new revenue. Pretty much the way things are now is that it tends to be safer in Harrisburg to not touch it at all. It is possible that may change after elections this year for the new session (I have a feeling a lot of stuff is in hold mode until after November).

PGW swearing off shale gas and city polticians bashing fracking doesn't help the industry look towards Philly when they need services, etc.

PGW didn't so much swear of shale gas. City Council passed legislation making it illegal for PGW to use it.

[BarryG]

PGW didn't so much swear of shale gas. City Council passed legislation making it illegal for PGW to use it.

Right ok. So now if the industry wants to make Philly a major port for exporting shale gas, I wonder if City Council would interfere.