Cranes on the Horizon

[eldondre]

.. statistically it's a piece of the Deep South shoved into the middle of a region with high levels of education and earning power.

realistically it's more rust belt, and probably was much more of a manufacturing town than Boston I think (but don't know). interesting that the disparity in regional degrees is much greater than incomes. anyway, how are boston public schools vs PPS?

This is true, but if, for example, some of the additional dollars not kept are going to taxes that are spent efficiently, it can improve QOL in a meaningful way. Then again it might just be getting siphoned off and not put to a use that benefits the average tax payer. Either way, we have some catching up to do economically.

billy is correct. the region really doesn't have much "catching up to do" even if the city does. the Philadelphia is a major world player just like boston and despite putting out less in nominal dollars, Philadelphians are able to earn the same amount which is really more important. Philadelphia has more potential because it's been able to play with boston despite a lagging core so one would believe that if the core stops lagging, it will put boston in the backseat. I'd also point out that in Philadelphia's heyday, it was cheaper and therefore better than Boston for the average person. it was that way ever since Ben Franklin left boston for ny and ended up in philly.

[OffenseTaken]

realistically it's more rust belt, and probably was much more of a manufacturing town than Boston I think (but don't know). interesting that the disparity in regional degrees is much greater than incomes. anyway, how are boston public schools vs PPS?

Industrial decline hit Boston much sooner (higher wages) and more gradually (they weren't overly reliant on a couple of companies, like Pennsy or Baldwin Locomotive, that just suddenly imploded). The city did have some really rotten years: in the 1920's, when other American cities were booming, jobs stagnated in Boston; the population would have even declined had it not been for the high Irish birth rate. Not coincidentally, a truly abysmal mayor made chasing wealthier citizens into the suburbs a matter of official policy.

It was really the first Rust Belt city, something we tend to forget since it was also the first city to leave the Rust Belt back in the 1980's. But this was because the city's fortunes rose along with the rest of New England's during the tech boom. When there was a similar resurgence in this area (and across the East Coast in general), Philadelphia itself was a non-participant. The city has been playing catch-up ever since, with limited success.

[eldondre]

Industrial decline hit Boston much sooner (higher wages) and more gradually (they weren't overly reliant on a couple of companies, like Pennsy or Baldwin Locomotive, that just suddenly imploded). The city did have some really rotten years: in the 1920's, when other American cities were booming, jobs stagnated in Boston; the population would have even declined had it not been for the high Irish birth rate. Not coincidentally, a truly abysmal mayor made chasing wealthier citizens into the suburbs a matter of official policy.

It was really the first Rust Belt city, something we tend to forget since it was also the first city to leave the Rust Belt back in the 1980's. But this was because the city's fortunes rose along with the rest of New England's during the tech boom. When there was a similar resurgence in this area (and across the East Coast in general), Philadelphia itself was a non-participant. The city has been playing catch-up ever since, with limited success.

Philadelphia was never really overly reliant on any one company. the Pennsy's bankruptcy was caused by, among other things, a broad based decline in manufacturing (as well as off peak passenger traffic leaving them with unprofitable commuter traffic). interestingly, they absorbed the new haven which was in even worse shape because all of new england had been in industrial decline earlier, now that you mention it. certainly the pennsy was among the biggest bankruptcies but in a sense it was a sign of a broad based decline. remember, Philadelphia made everything. perhaps there's some natural curve at work since boston was in decline a generation earlier, philadelphia is recovering a generation later. as far as the tech boom is concerned, it occurred in the King of Prussia area. my friends in the tech industry got obscene offers in the last 90's right out of college..a few years later it was all gone.

[OffenseTaken]

Yea but again, here is where the comparisons become difficult due to city boundaries. In "Extended" Center City (river to river, Girard to Tasker), something like 40-50% of the population has a degree (hard to know the exact number because of the way stats are reported by CCD), and many of the others are college students. If you were to draw a city the size of Boston out from City Hall, even excluding University City, the numbers would be much closer.

State of CC report (PDF): http://www.centercityphila.org/docs/SOCC2012_bigpic.pdf

But if you redrew Philadelphia's city limits in the way that you propose, it wouldn't just be "extended" CC: the result would be more like the current city, minus the Northeast. (After all, Boston gets all the slums, but no vast quasi-suburban enclaves.) This would probably make its college-graduate count even worse.

[billy ross]

I disagree. I suspect that the difference between metro college graduation rates is explained by the city of Philly's awfully low numbers. On the bright side, those numbers are out of date, I think. The city of Philadelphia has a college graduate percentage of over 20% presently of those over the age of 25, and climbing strongly.

Yea but again, here is where the comparisons become difficult due to city boundaries. In "Extended" Center City (river to river, Girard to Tasker), something like 40-50% of the population has a degree (hard to know the exact number because of the way stats are reported by CCD), and many of the others are college students. If you were to draw a city the size of Boston out from City Hall, even excluding University City, the numbers would be much closer.

State of CC report (PDF): http://www.centercityphila.org/docs/SOCC2012_bigpic.pdf

[Jerry19127]

As someone who has lived in both cities, what one am I prouder of? When you live in Philly and you have out of town visitors, it's like playing a game of what areas to go to and which to avoid. You're constantly stressed out and hoping that the experience is positive so that family and loved ones will want to return. That doesn't happen in Boston. Sure suburban loved ones are naturally curious about the "big" city but I'd rather just travel to them now. While Philly has a lot of "potential", it makes me sick that tax-and-spend Mayor touts cranes as progress when he has no leadership or grander vision.

[MariusPontmercy]

As someone who has lived in both cities, what one am I prouder of? When you live in Philly and you have out of town visitors, it's like playing a game of what areas to go to and which to avoid. You're constantly stressed out and hoping that the experience is positive so that family and loved ones will want to return. That doesn't happen in Boston. Sure suburban loved ones are naturally curious about the "big" city but I'd rather just travel to them now. While Philly has a lot of "potential", it makes me sick that tax-and-spend Mayor touts cranes as progress when he has no leadership or grander vision.

Well you have to start somewhere. Boston wasn't always as nice as it is now.

[Naveen]

You're constantly stressed out and hoping that the experience is positive so that family and loved ones will want to return.

Sounds like your problems really aren't about the city.

[billy ross]

As someone who has lived in both cities, what one am I prouder of? When you live in Philly and you have out of town visitors, it's like playing a game of what areas to go to and which to avoid. You're constantly stressed out and hoping that the experience is positive so that family and loved ones will want to return. That doesn't happen in Boston. Sure suburban loved ones are naturally curious about the "big" city but I'd rather just travel to them now. While Philly has a lot of "potential", it makes me sick that tax-and-spend Mayor touts cranes as progress when he has no leadership or grander vision.

To me Boston is 'nice' only if your definition of nice revolves around money. I personally love artists and culture, usually low, ethnic, demotic culture. Money can't buy either of those, and Philly has both in spades. When I was in Boston with my daughter earlier this year I was appalled at the assumption there that quality and money are sort of one and the same.

I have guests down from New York' Upper West Side and Milan, Italy today. They want to see the Barnes, but my idea had been to show them around South Philly, which I find to be a very interesting and very dynamic place. Yesterday we went shopping in Mt Airy and I thought it would have been nice had my visitors already arrived, since I think what is going on at Greene and Carpenter is extremely interesting and I think they would have liked West Mt. Airy's streetscape. I first showed the male in the party around Philly in 1988. I distinctly remember getting trapped in the Schuylkill Falls projects by males trying to sell us drugs - they headed us off at the only way out. That was disconcerting. I'll make sure to show them how our local pj's look now.

[BarryG]

To me Boston is 'nice' only if your definition of nice revolves around money. I personally love artists and culture, usually low, ethnic, demotic culture. Money can't buy either of those, and Philly has both in spades. When I was in Boston with my daughter earlier this year I was appalled at the assumption there that quality and money are sort of one and the same.

I have guests down from New York' Upper West Side and Milan, Italy today. They want to see the Barnes, but my idea had been to show them around South Philly, which I find to be a very interesting and very dynamic place. Yesterday we went shopping in Mt Airy and I thought it would have been nice had my visitors already arrived, since I think what is going on at Greene and Carpenter is extremely interesting and I think they would have liked West Mt. Airy's streetscape. I first showed the male in the party around Philly in 1988. I distinctly remember getting trapped in the Schuylkill Falls projects by males trying to sell us drugs - they headed us off at the only way out. That was disconcerting. I'll make sure to show them how our local pj's look now.

[John Goodman]

To me Boston is 'nice' only if your definition of nice revolves around money. I personally love artists and culture, usually low, ethnic, demotic culture. Money can't buy either of those, and Philly has both in spades. When I was in Boston with my daughter earlier this year I was appalled at the assumption there that quality and money are sort of one and the same.

I agree, I was just there this weekend and it is a lame city in my opinion, reminds me more of downtown Disney than an actual city.

[thoth]

As someone who has lived in both cities, what one am I prouder of? When you live in Philly and you have out of town visitors, it's like playing a game of what areas to go to and which to avoid. You're constantly stressed out and hoping that the experience is positive so that family and loved ones will want to return.

In Manayunk you have this problem? What are you accidentally leading your family into North Philly every time they visit?

[3rd&Brown]

In Manayunk you have this problem? What are you accidentally leading your family into North Philly every time they visit?

i think it's ironic he moved from boston to manayunk, which is our very own miniature replica of an urban area, much in the same way boston is a replica of a larger, more dynamic city.

[Jerry19127]

Everyone that lives here and has out of town guests does the shuffle. Go to Independence Mall...avoid Market Street. Go to a restaurant on 13th Street...avoid Chestnut. Friends want to go to a casino for some drinks...avoid Sugarhouse and go to Parx. Almost every visitor experience in Philly is 1 step away from thuggery, homeless, trash, and drugs. It's just a fact. I hope it gets better and I'm sure it will somewhat but I don't hold out too much hope. I'd like to see statistics on the # of people that choose to raise their kids here go up and the business tax climate fundamentally change for me to hold out hope long term.

[the mule]

I was interested in participating in this thread about the rate of development in Philly until it turned into a battle of comparisons with Boston. Who cares about Boston?

While Philadelphia doesn't exist in a vacuum and its renaissance can't be divorced from market forces in the rest of the mid-atlantic corridor, there are a great deal of local factors that are driving its recent development boom.

[OffenseTaken]

I was interested in participating in this thread about the rate of development in Philly until it turned into a battle of comparisons with Boston. Who cares about Boston?

I'm not enough of a local booster to deny that Boston gets some things right. There are some things this city gets right. There are also some things we could be doing much better. That should be our concern because I presume we all live here.

In other words, exactly: who cares about Boston?

While Philadelphia doesn't exist in a vacuum and its renaissance can't be divorced from market forces in the rest of the mid-atlantic corridor, there are a great deal of local factors that are driving its recent development boom.

There are a great deal of local factors: KoP, Narberth, Malvern, Blue Bell, Conshy, Wayne, etc. They're all home to the offices of some enormous companies, and to an impressive number of startups. But since they're also some of the most boring towns on Earth, many of their employees live in Philadelphia.

This is great, but it's also ass-backwards. This city should be an even better home for businesses than it is for young professionals. Yet Philadelphia is covered in frogs and locusts, as far as those businesses are concerned. Unless we fix that, almost every discussion on this forum about the future of this city is immaterial.

[eldondre]

if narberth, wayne, and malvern (let alone KoP) qualify as the most boring towns on earth, I'd suggest you haven't travelled much. I also don't have much "fear of chestnut" when I go to 13th st. because there are homeless.

[johnnie]

I agree, I was just there this weekend and it is a lame city in my opinion, reminds me more of downtown Disney than an actual city.

I couldn't disagree more with this statement being as I just got back from there as well. Maybe it was the clean subway/trolley stops, actual helpful transit workers or the lack of garbage everywhere that gave you that opinion?

[thoth]

Everyone that lives here and has out of town guests does the shuffle. Go to Independence Mall...avoid Market Street. Go to a restaurant on 13th Street...avoid Chestnut. Friends want to go to a casino for some drinks...avoid Sugarhouse and go to Parx. Almost every visitor experience in Philly is 1 step away from thuggery, homeless, trash, and drugs. It's just a fact. I hope it gets better and I'm sure it will somewhat but I don't hold out too much hope. I'd like to see statistics on the # of people that choose to raise their kids here go up and the business tax climate fundamentally change for me to hold out hope long term.

Credibility levels rapidly diminishing!

Market Street might not be Times Square, but I also wouldn't be afraid to walk down it with a visitor. One step away from "thuggery, homeless, trash, and drugs" is bit of a stretch. Have you ever been to Center City? Have you ever been to your purported home in Manayunk? Also thanks for speaking for "everyone who lives here".

[raider.adam]

I couldn't disagree more with this statement being as I just got back from there as well. Maybe it was the clean subway/trolley stops, actual helpful transit workers or the lack of garbage everywhere that gave you that opinion?

Probably because Disney has clean transit stops, helpful workers and cleaned up streets.