Dynamic Developers vs. Building Trades Unions

**billy ross** · 05-03-2012, 08:52 PM

Who's gonna win?

Developers, building-trade council tussle over project

Each side is making digs against the others. The Post brothers hire 'Philadelphia residents'. Does that mean minorities who aren't suburban-dwelling union members? The Post Brothers 'are entitled to wealth, and the people who work with them are not entitled to a living wage.'. No translation needed there.

I never knew Jim Kenney was a union guy. I'm guessing they'll be more careful that their subs have their paperwork in order now.

One final point. That job is in North Philly, not in Center City. It's adjacent to Center City, but I wish reporters were more interested in details and didn't spread misinformation.

**Naveen** · 05-03-2012, 10:15 PM

Whenever I read stories like this I always wonder how it compares to other cities. Philadelphia is not the only city with unions, or developers who want labor that's cheaper than what the unions offer. So how do things unfold in those places?

**sharkey** · 05-03-2012, 10:23 PM

Most of the union members live in the suburbs in houses built by non-union workers.

**sharkey** · 05-03-2012, 10:26 PM

The article says L&I inspected the site at the request of Councilman Kenney. Whoa, I thought all communications and requests to that and other City agencies had to go through the 311 system. That is what Nutterbutter has been telling us for several years. Sounds like a violation of due process of law to me. Kenney and L&I need to get smacked with a civil rights lawsuit.

**gren** · 05-04-2012, 01:10 PM

Originally Posted by Naveen

Whenever I read stories like this I always wonder how it compares to other cities. Philadelphia is not the only city with unions, or developers who want labor that's cheaper than what the unions offer. So how do things unfold in those places?

Post Brothers Apartments Struggle With the Philadelphia Building Trades Unions

Note that that is coming from the Post Bros. site comparing Washington DC. I'm sure the union has their own website on this issue I just don't know where it is.

In the end I just watched the videos.

**Naveen** · 05-07-2012, 12:21 AM

Wow. Considering stuff like this, I'm surprised there's as much development in our city as there is.

**billy ross** · 05-07-2012, 08:31 AM

Originally Posted by Naveen

Wow. Considering stuff like this, I'm surprised there's as much development in our city as there is.

These guys are new, and they don't like the old way of doing things. This is what eldondre means when he talks about New York costs in Philly. I think these Post guys will outlast the union here.

**Ho Chi Minh** · 05-07-2012, 09:15 AM

Originally Posted by gren

Post Brothers Apartments Struggle With the Philadelphia Building Trades Unions

Note that that is coming from the Post Bros. site comparing Washington DC. I'm sure the union has their own website on this issue I just don't know where it is.

In the end I just watched the videos.

Report an Environmental Violation | Enforcement and Compliance | U.S. EPA

Union scum.

**eldondre** · 05-07-2012, 10:18 AM

Originally Posted by Naveen

Wow. Considering stuff like this, I'm surprised there's as much development in our city as there is.

very few big projects go through without subsidies. if you look at the areas with lots of projects, they're largely smaller projects in places like point breeze, fishtown, francisville..almost certainly built with non-union labor. this is a big project with higher visibility, apparently the union has drawn a line in the sand but if they win, no big projects will move forward without the state grant spigot flowing freely. lofts 600 received significant tax breaks, state office received a state grant, the hotel at 12th and arch received a state grant, etc, etc. ironically, if the union wins, only buildings serving rich people will make financial sense.

**billy ross** · 05-07-2012, 10:26 AM

Originally Posted by eldondre

very few big projects go through without subsidies. if you look at the areas with lots of projects, they're largely smaller projects in places like point breeze, fishtown, francisville..almost certainly built with non-union labor. this is a big project with higher visibility, apparently the union has drawn a line in the sand but if they win, no big projects will move forward without the state grant spigot flowing freely. lofts 600 received significant tax breaks, state office received a state grant, the hotel at 12th and arch received a state grant, etc, etc. ironically, if the union wins, only buildings serving rich people will make financial sense.

There are odd diseconomies of scale in construction in Philly. Philly's been a mom and pop city for quite a while. It seems that the unions reinforce this.

**raider.adam** · 05-07-2012, 10:40 AM

Originally Posted by Naveen

Wow. Considering stuff like this, I'm surprised there's as much development in our city as there is.

It's why, besides frequently requiring government money, you always seem the same names on major projects. People form outside Philly come in to do a project and then turn around and leave after trying to deal with it.

**cubanChris** · 05-09-2012, 10:31 AM

Building tensions over nonunion workers

Building tensions over nonunion workers

Valerie Russ
Daily News Staff Writer

Matthew and Michael Pestronk, two young real-estate developers who came here from Virginia to attend Drexel, are trying to shake up the city’s construction business by hiring nonunion labor at two huge apartment complexes they’re renovating.

Not to sound over the top, as I'm sure there is at least something to the other side of this union VS nonunion battle, but there has to be a reckoning at some point in this city. It doesnt take a degree in economics to know that there would be more work and compromise if the union rates shifted toward the realistic and unions reevaluated their principles and purpose. There seems to at least be the widespread perception that they've degenerated into short term, selfish policies which flies in the face of their rhetoric.

**puzzles** · 05-09-2012, 10:43 AM

I hope the Post Brothers outlast these scumbags. Disgusting animals. The entire world has made sacrifices due to the recession. Millions lost their jobs and millions more have taken pay cuts. They need to understand that this is the way of things. I hope every developer in the city hires nonunion until they get the point.

**Sailaway** · 05-09-2012, 11:07 AM

Originally Posted by puzzles

I hope the Post Brothers outlast these scumbags. Disgusting animals. The entire world has made sacrifices due to the recession. Millions lost their jobs and millions more have taken pay cuts. They need to understand that this is the way of things. I hope every developer in the city hires nonunion until they get the point.

Good point, and well said. There's a certain chain restaurant in the Northeast I won't go to because they proudly display the fact that it was built using union labor.

**randomuser** · 05-09-2012, 12:00 PM

Originally Posted by puzzles

I hope the Post Brothers outlast these scumbags. Disgusting animals. The entire world has made sacrifices due to the recession. Millions lost their jobs and millions more have taken pay cuts. They need to understand that this is the way of things. I hope every developer in the city hires nonunion until they get the point.

How does that help anyone? Union labor builds things right. That's why people hire union labor.

They have the union right where they want them when they show videos like that. That's all that needs to be done is exposing certain things in order to pressure them into being more reasonable. If people get outraged and no longer buy their position, then they can't try to spin it to their favor.

**PhilaCap** · 05-09-2012, 12:59 PM

terrorism

**BarryG** · 05-12-2012, 10:12 PM

L&I lifted the stop work order on Goldtex: Stop-work order lifted at nonunion work site

So now that the city did their little song and dance for the unions, what's next?

**billy ross** · 05-12-2012, 11:45 PM

Originally Posted by BarryG

L&I lifted the stop work order on Goldtex: Stop-work order lifted at nonunion work site

So now that the city did their little song and dance for the unions, what's next?

I'm guessing an L & I guy or three were in the pockets of the unions, and a phone call from Jim Kenney got the job shut down. Not having paperwork in order didn't help - the city is obsessed with having paperwork in order and having paid the proper fees nowadays.

However, people higher up than Jim Kenney want to see three things. Business development. De-abandonment of buildings (getting buildings/parcels paying the proper fees in a timely fashion). Gainful employment of 'minority' city-dwellers. This job is a trifecta in that regard. I would think that going forward the machinery of city government is in Post Brother's pockets, so long as fees and paperwork remain in order. It just seems to me that the city has made straight the path of Post Brothers getting this job moving again. It seems like an about-face by the city, which tells me higher-ups countermanded Kenney's 'requests'. We'll see.

**gren** · 05-13-2012, 02:07 AM

Originally Posted by billy ross

I'm guessing an L & I guy or three were in the pockets of the unions, and a phone call from Jim Kenney got the job shut down. Not having paperwork in order didn't help - the city is obsessed with having paperwork in order and having paid the proper fees nowadays.

However, people higher up than Jim Kenney want to see three things. Business development. De-abandonment of buildings (getting buildings/parcels paying the proper fees in a timely fashion). Gainful employment of 'minority' city-dwellers. This job is a trifecta in that regard. I would think that going forward the machinery of city government is in Post Brother's pockets, so long as fees and paperwork remain in order. It just seems to me that the city has made straight the path of Post Brothers getting this job moving again. It seems like an about-face by the city, which tells me higher-ups countermanded Kenney's 'requests'. We'll see.

Why do you think it's an about face? From the meager news articles that I assume we're all working off of it seems like L&I was requested to do an inspection. They found a legitimate violation of unlicensed subcontractors and penalized the developers. The developers had to get their operation in order and either made sure their subcontractors got licensed or found new licensed subcontractor. When that happened L&I had no reason to stop work. Just curious why you think this is "higher-ups" controlling L&I rather than one councilman who compelled L&I to do a thorough inspection and then L&I followed their own procedures. I'm just curious why that isn't the more plausible story.

**DCnPhilly** · 05-13-2012, 04:02 PM

Originally Posted by randomuser

How does that help anyone? Union labor builds things right. That's why people hire union labor.

They have the union right where they want them when they show videos like that. That's all that needs to be done is exposing certain things in order to pressure them into being more reasonable. If people get outraged and no longer buy their position, then they can't try to spin it to their favor.

That's not always true. Because (and if) unions guarantee quality work doesn't mean that non-union labor is exclusively unqualified. Plenty of qualified workers choose not to join a union for one reason or another. It's naive to assume that they're not in a union because they're flawed. I think most developers hire unions because they don't want to wind up in court after some unethical council member entertains a claim anyone could have made. Are we going to launch an investigation every time someone uninvolved suspects something shady? No, you assume business is legitimate unless someone involved makes the claim. Otherwise every whack job walking by a business who doesn't like that business can complain to L&I, drag them into an expensive court battle, and run them out of business with an entirely baseless claim.