Dynamic Developers vs. Building Trades Unions

[randomuser]

Don't belittle 911 on behalf of the trade unions. It collapsed because a bunch of pi**ed off religious fanatics flew two planes into it. Even the unions couldn't have predicted that.

Belittling it is claiming it was a controlled demolition or whatever other bullsh*t certain people are saying on this thread.

I'm stating facts. The towers would still be standing today if the sprinkler systems and other things were what they should've been. The jet fuel acted like gasoline to the fire and kept it going for much longer than it would've otherwise, which eventually bent the steel and did other things, causing it to not be able to stand up anymore. The firefighters thought they could've gotten it under control that day, and they probably would've if the fire-proofing was what it should've been. The planes hit very high up. The buildings didn't collapse because of the explosion.

[mixiboi]

Mmm...

Trade Center Hit by 6-Floor Fire

The fire appeared to be confined primarily to 11th-floor office equipment, according to Deputy Assistant Fire Chief Homer Bishop. The damage to the service core was apparently confined to electrical wiring in and near the core.

The building is not equipped with a fire sprinkler system.

A total of 24 pieces of firefighting apparatus and 132 firemen fought the fire. Sixteen firemen were treated at the scene for smoke inhalation.

To reach the fire, the men boarded a freight elevator to the ninth floor, attached hoses to standpipes in stairwells on the 10th floor then advanced on the fire. Flames could be seen pouring out of 11th-floor windows on the east side of the building.

Fifty people, mostly maintenance men, were evacuated.

New York City's new fire code for office towers requires that floors lacking sprinkler systems be divided into units no larger than 7,500 square feet unless buildings possess special fire detection devices.

The new fire law also requires smoke-detection systems that in the event of fire will shut down the air-conditioning system, which can spread smoke and gases through the building, and return all elevators to the lobby floor.

The elevator provision is intended to override heat-sensitive elevator call-buttons which can summon elevators to fire floors as happened in 1970 at One New York Plaza and 919 Third Avenue, where a total of five deaths in two buildings were elevator-related. It was after those fires that the new fire law was enacted.

Fire Commissioner John T. O'Hagan has stated that he considers sprinkler systems, which are activated by high temperatures, to be the most effective means of fire-fighting in high-rise buildings.

"I'd sleep a lot better at night if the World Trade Center had sprinklers,'' he commented recently while discussing the plausibility of skyscraper fire such as the depicted in the current film, "The Towering Inferno.

[BrianL]

The argument still baffles me. They aren't THAT new. I don't think its the first time they've been installed in a skyscraper. Chances are if they did break, it would have been due to the installation, not the "new technology" that seems to work elsewhere.

And as has been pointed out, if they did break, who would pay for it? Comcast. If the union was really doing anyone a favor, they would have pointed out their concerns, let the client weigh those concerns, and done whatever the client was paying them to do within the bounds of what the codes required. Instead they bullied them into installing a bunch of pipes to nowhere. No one with an ounce of sense thinks they were doing Comcast a favor, even the union protesting Comcast's design.

That is why there are only two urinals and 8 toilets in the men's room at the Comcast Center, and flushless ones are now a requirement in any new PA state building.

[billy ross]

Billy, the article said that the manufacturer even recommended against installing with copper waste lines.

I'll be interested to learn what kind of material works best with flushless urinal wastes. I don't think that cast iron would work much better. Those are the two historical types of material used on urinal wastes. I'm not against waterless urinals. I've only pointed out that we don't have the applied science down 100% yet. Remember that Eastern State Penitentiary, the first building in Philadelphia to have indoor plumbing (in 1829!!!), was a complete disaster (plumbing-wise), because they didn't yet understand the importance of trapping and venting, nor how to effect them. It was a disgusting, revolting, stench-filled place. They figured it out, eventually, though. That's how we got the codes we have today.

Mmm...

Trade Center Hit by 6-Floor Fire

As building technologies evolve, codes too need to evolve. I hadn't considered that fires would 'call' elevators to them (by melting the buttons), thus dooming hapless elevator passengers. Wow. What's amazing is that in 1975 they knew the WTC should have been sprinklered or at even better fireproofed. We had 26 years to fix it, and we didn't, despite the fact that we knew as of at least 1993 that they had a bullseye on them. Yet we think nothing of wasting tremendous amounts of money on Homeland Security nonsense like adding more fencing around the Queen Lane water treatment facility (to 'thwart' terrorist attack), but we don't want to be bothered to require that buildings be made fire-resistant or fireproof by using structural materials that aren't bothered by fire, or at least coating the structures so that they are impervious to fires. I am amazed that in the year 2012 we build houses and commercial buildings out of pulp wood, otherwise known as kindling. It just seems so barbaric and moronic.

I wonder how many people would have been saved had the elevators been allowed to run during the WTC attack and evacuate people. One would think that designing a fireproof button (out of metal, maybe? Duh, or even better yet, one that excessive heat would disable) wouldn't be all that difficult.

[sharkey]

Sharkey

Have to let you know that the urinals work fine, they rely on this thing called gravity to work, you gravity, that force that has been around since the beginning of time. They put a few in each bathroom just to show the looney union that they do work.

My understanding was that they all were waterless but water lines were run and capped next to each one "in case they did not work"-----on reality because the backup system gave the plumbers the work they demanded

[sharkey]

I understand that new technologies often have bugs to be worked out or even deficiencies that may cause them to be abandoned, how will we ever find out if we don't ever allow them to be used? I think that if Bily Ross was around in the early 1800's, he would be saying "we had better not try these newfangled cast iron pipes, I heard they are brittle and can crack. We had better stick to hollowed out tree trunks."

[billy ross]

I understand that new technologies often have bugs to be worked out or even deficiencies that may cause them to be abandoned, how will we ever find out if we don't ever allow them to be used? I think that if Bily Ross was around in the early 1800's, he would be saying "we had better not try these newfangled cast iron pipes, I heard they are brittle and can crack. We had better stick to hollowed out tree trunks."

No. I've said that for awhile you should do both, or do the untried stuff in an exposed location where it'll be easy to retrofit if need be. Of course I like tubeless tires, electronic ignition, solid state HVAC controls, etc. These are things that have become standard in my lifetime. I like there to be about a five year proving window, that's all. I'm never one of the first adopters of new technology, but once it's been proven I'm all in. I have two smartphones, for instance. I'm guessing you were one of the people who signed up for Betamax.

[billy ross]

News - philly.com

Not enough room for expansion?

[DCnPhilly]

No. I've said that for awhile you should do both, or do the untried stuff in an exposed location where it'll be easy to retrofit if need be. Of course I like tubeless tires, electronic ignition, solid state HVAC controls, etc. These are things that have become standard in my lifetime. I like there to be about a five year proving window, that's all. I'm never one of the first adopters of new technology, but once it's been proven I'm all in. I have two smartphones, for instance. I'm guessing you were one of the people who signed up for Betamax.

Laser disk is probably a better analogy. Betamax was still the industry standard until digital because it was simply better. VHS ended up on the shelves because of better marketing.

I still think if something like waterless urinals are questionable technology, those with concern should be lobbying the experts who write the codes, not bullying the end user.

[BarryG]

News - philly.com

Not enough room for expansion?

So was Center City One built by union labor?

[billy ross]

Laser disk is probably a better analogy. Betamax was still the industry standard until digital because it was simply better. VHS ended up on the shelves because of better marketing.

I still think if something like waterless urinals are questionable technology, those with concern should be lobbying the experts who write the codes, not bullying the end user.

The codes previously didn't allow waterless urinals. They were changed to allow the Comcast Center to be a green building, but also to facilitate switching back in case they didn't work out. You've got it backwards. The discussion is all about the codes.

[billy ross]

So was Center City One built by union labor?

Don't know. My guess would be yes. My point was that screwing up plumbing in high rises can be catastrophic.

[DCnPhilly]

The codes previously didn't allow waterless urinals. They were changed to allow the Comcast Center to be a green building, but also to facilitate switching back in case they didn't work out. You've got it backwards. The discussion is all about the codes.

Well if that's the case I see your point. But wouldn't that be a cut and dry case? Comcast says they don't want to abide by the code, the experts who right the code say, "no, that's illegal." Done, right?

[johnnie]

Don't know. My guess would be yes. My point was that screwing up plumbing in high rises can be catastrophic.

Wasn't Center City 1 built in the 70's? Probably just lack of maintenance if it is 40 years old.

[Sharkfood]

To bring this thread back to the original topic, I have been waiting for the Inquirer Editorial Board to chime in
on the union bullying tactics at the Goldtex apartment building site. But with the passage of time, it seems less
and less likely that they will take a position. I find their failure to take a position pathetic and abysmal.
The issue is not so much union vs. nonunion but (a) the outrageously hourly rates charged by the Carpenters' Union
in particular and (b) the use of intimidation and bullying tactics to interfere with a perfectly legal business activity.
It is cowardice on the part of the Inquirer not to stand up to these outrages.

[DCnPhilly]

To bring this thread back to the original topic, I have been waiting for the Inquirer Editorial Board to chime in
on the union bullying tactics at the Goldtex apartment building site. But with the passage of time, it seems less
and less likely that they will take a position. I find their failure to take a position pathetic and abysmal.
The issue is not so much union vs. nonunion but (a) the outrageously hourly rates charged by the Carpenters' Union
in particular and (b) the use of intimidation and bullying tactics to interfere with a perfectly legal business activity.
It is cowardice on the part of the Inquirer not to stand up to these outrages.

I don't know if its their place to take a position outside of editorials, but it is their duty to report on illegal activity. If the paper is avoiding the subject because of the perception Philadelphia is a "union town" for fear of losing advertisers it not only shows cowardice, but also how out of touch the paper is with their readers and the fact that many Philadelphians are no longer blindly supporting unions of any type.

That said, I don't know if that's the case. They've run a number of articles presenting both sides of this relatively small project, some coming down pretty hard on the unions simply by factually presenting their tactics. I think the unions at GoldTex are testing the bounds of their restraining order and its going to escalate again. The paper won't be able to ignore that, and the more hostile and illegal the unions' actions, the worse the paper will be forced to portray them. Basically, the unions owns actions aren't doing themselves any favors in a post-union rewlity, regardless of what the paper wants to say.