Dynamic Developers vs. Building Trades Unions

[sharkey]

Why do you think it's an about face? From the meager news articles that I assume we're all working off of it seems like L&I was requested to do an inspection. They found a legitimate violation of unlicensed subcontractors and penalized the developers. The developers had to get their operation in order and either made sure their subcontractors got licensed or found new licensed subcontractor. When that happened L&I had no reason to stop work. Just curious why you think this is "higher-ups" controlling L&I rather than one councilman who compelled L&I to do a thorough inspection and then L&I followed their own procedures. I'm just curious why that isn't the more plausible story.

L&I is not supposed to be doing inspections at the request of a politician. Remember, when Mayor Nutterbutter got in it was a "new day in Phila." No more cronyism or politics in the provision of city services! All L&I service requests are supposed to go through the 311 sysetm. You can't even walk into the main L&I office and make a complaint.

[sharkey]

How does that help anyone? Union labor builds things right. That's why people hire union labor.

They have the union right where they want them when they show videos like that. That's all that needs to be done is exposing certain things in order to pressure them into being more reasonable. If people get outraged and no longer buy their position, then they can't try to spin it to their favor.

"Union labor builds things right." Maybe so, but if that were clear and caused people to hire union labor, then why do the unions need to try to disrupt nonunion jobsin any way they can?

[Beer is good]

Good point, and well said. There's a certain chain restaurant in the Northeast I won't go to because they proudly display the fact that it was built using union labor.

Do you shop in supermarkets that show that they are part of the food and commercial workers

[gren]

L&I is not supposed to be doing inspections at the request of a politician. Remember, when Mayor Nutterbutter got in it was a "new day in Phila." No more cronyism or politics in the provision of city services! All L&I service requests are supposed to go through the 311 sysetm. You can't even walk into the main L&I office and make a complaint.

Maybe Kenney used 311? As I said, the news stories aren't specific and I don't think L&I should violate its protocols for a councilman. But if the worst it did was respond to a direct request for an inspection and then did everything else by the book then we've come pretty far.

[billy ross]

Maybe Kenney used 311? As I said, the news stories aren't specific and I don't think L&I should violate its protocols for a councilman. But if the worst it did was respond to a direct request for an inspection and then did everything else by the book then we've come pretty far.

They had permits in place to do the work they were doing. I don't believe it is L & I protocol to issue stop work orders on properly permitted jobs where there are no safety violations. However, they are getting stricter and stricter, so it's possible there's a protocol whereby not having BPLs for all subs triggers a stop work order.

[randomuser]

That's not always true. Because (and if) unions guarantee quality work doesn't mean that non-union labor is exclusively unqualified. Plenty of qualified workers choose not to join a union for one reason or another. It's naive to assume that they're not in a union because they're flawed. I think most developers hire unions because they don't want to wind up in court after some unethical council member entertains a claim anyone could have made. Are we going to launch an investigation every time someone uninvolved suspects something shady? No, you assume business is legitimate unless someone involved makes the claim. Otherwise every whack job walking by a business who doesn't like that business can complain to L&I, drag them into an expensive court battle, and run them out of business with an entirely baseless claim.

I never said it did. I'm just saying that you have to admit that unions do the job right at the end of the day. Also, please do not throw around insults based on assumptions. I'm anything but naive.

"Union labor builds things right." Maybe so, but if that were clear and caused people to hire union labor, then why do the unions need to try to disrupt nonunion jobsin any way they can?

I never said unions were right. I have my own opinion about unions but that doesn't change the fact that if you hire union labor, you know the job will get done right. That was all I was saying, and it was in response to somebody saying to only hire non-union labor.

[DCnPhilly]

I never said it did. I'm just saying that you have to admit that unions do the job right at the end of the day. Also, please do not throw around insults based on assumptions. I'm anything but naive.

I never said unions were right. I have my own opinion about unions but that doesn't change the fact that if you hire union labor, you know the job will get done right. That was all I was saying, and it was in response to somebody saying to only hire non-union labor.

I said it would be naive to assume non-union labor is unskilled. If you don't believe that, than I certainly don't think you're naive. However it might be naive to assume that all union labor is skilled. Can this be quantified? Unions protested the installation of water-less urinals in the Comcast Building because they required less maintenance. Deliberately installing flawed or outdated technology solely to guarantee future labor isn't getting the job done right, in my opinion. Getting the job done right means doing what the client asks, doing it correctly, and meeting the deadline while not having to return to fix anything.

[BarryG]

I never said it did. I'm just saying that you have to admit that unions do the job right at the end of the day. Also, please do not throw around insults based on assumptions. I'm anything but naive.

I never said unions were right. I have my own opinion about unions but that doesn't change the fact that if you hire union labor, you know the job will get done right.

Somehow I doubt this is why the office buildings downtown require union labor to unload trucks and put together furniture of Ikea.

[billy ross]

I said it would be naive to assume non-union labor is unskilled. If you don't believe that, than I certainly don't think you're naive. However it might be naive to assume that all union labor is skilled. Can this be quantified? Unions protested the installation of water-less urinals in the Comcast Building because they required less maintenance. Deliberately installing flawed or outdated technology solely to guarantee future labor isn't getting the job done right, in my opinion. Getting the job done right means doing what the client asks, doing it correctly, and meeting the deadline while not having to return to fix anything.

You're making assumptions. The Master Plumbers were uncomfortable changing the plumbing code for the tallest building in the state. The code was already changed for the convention center Mariott and you can't just go changing a code every time someone wants to build a big building 'their way'. The code exists for a reason, and it applies to everyone, not just little people who don't have influence. The code should be changed over tine, as technologies prove themselves. In the end the compromise that was worked out at the Comcast Center was a good compromise.

You aren't in the construction industry, and you haven't had to deal with the fallout from poorly thought out deviations from standards. I'm sure you've heard of formaldehyde in Chinese drywall. Every five years or so there is a huge scandal about moronic new methods that don't work out as planned. I gave you one. I'll give you more. Orangeburg. Aluminum wiring. CPVC. Asbestos. Tin coated steel. Plastic water mains. Installing pressure regulators inside houses. Heaters without rollout switches. Boilers without Hartford Loops. The list goes on. Urine is one of the more caustic things you'll ever deal with. You should see what it does to even thick wall (K) copper.

[sharkey]

You're making assumptions. The Master Plumbers were uncomfortable changing the plumbing code for the tallest building in the state. The code was already changed for the convention center Mariott and you can't just go changing a code every time someone wants to build a big building 'their way'. The code exists for a reason, and it applies to everyone, not just little people who don't have influence. The code should be changed over tine, as technologies prove themselves. In the end the compromise that was worked out at the Comcast Center was a good compromise.

You aren't in the construction industry, and you haven't had to deal with the fallout from poorly thought out deviations from standards. I'm sure you've heard of formaldehyde in Chinese drywall. Every five years or so there is a huge scandal about moronic new methods that don't work out as planned. I gave you one. I'll give you more. Orangeburg. Aluminum wiring. CPVC. Asbestos. Tin coated steel. Plastic water mains. Installing pressure regulators inside houses. Heaters without rollout switches. Boilers without Hartford Loops. The list goes on. Urine is one of the more caustic things you'll ever deal with. You should see what it does to even thick wall (K) copper.

So, it has nothing to do with preserving union jobs??!! Isn't it strange and curious that pvc pipe has been used underground throughout most of the US without problems for quite some years now, with the exceptions od the strongholds of the building trades--Chicago and Phila. Nothing to do with the fact that pvc is a lot easier and quicker to lay than cast iron, of course, the unions are just being very protective of our welfare! Thank God we have them to look out for us.

[randomuser]

I said it would be naive to assume non-union labor is unskilled. If you don't believe that, than I certainly don't think you're naive. However it might be naive to assume that all union labor is skilled. Can this be quantified? Unions protested the installation of water-less urinals in the Comcast Building because they required less maintenance. Deliberately installing flawed or outdated technology solely to guarantee future labor isn't getting the job done right, in my opinion. Getting the job done right means doing what the client asks, doing it correctly, and meeting the deadline while not having to return to fix anything.

It would be both naive and nonsensical for somebody like me who's been around skilled non-union builders my whole life to think that, yes.

Almost as naive as thinking everything is always about union corruption. It's a complex issue.

You're making assumptions. The Master Plumbers were uncomfortable changing the plumbing code for the tallest building in the state. The code was already changed for the convention center Mariott and you can't just go changing a code every time someone wants to build a big building 'their way'. The code exists for a reason, and it applies to everyone, not just little people who don't have influence. The code should be changed over tine, as technologies prove themselves. In the end the compromise that was worked out at the Comcast Center was a good compromise.

You aren't in the construction industry, and you haven't had to deal with the fallout from poorly thought out deviations from standards. I'm sure you've heard of formaldehyde in Chinese drywall. Every five years or so there is a huge scandal about moronic new methods that don't work out as planned. I gave you one. I'll give you more. Orangeburg. Aluminum wiring. CPVC. Asbestos. Tin coated steel. Plastic water mains. Installing pressure regulators inside houses. Heaters without rollout switches. Boilers without Hartford Loops. The list goes on. Urine is one of the more caustic things you'll ever deal with. You should see what it does to even thick wall (K) copper.

Exactly.

[DCnPhilly]

It would be both naive and nonsensical for somebody like me who's been around skilled non-union builders my whole life to think that, yes.

Almost as naive as thinking everything is always about union corruption. It's a complex issue.

Exactly.

I'm not pro or anti union. They're obviously all different with differing objectives. I'm willing to look at the facts and reconsider information about an industry I am admittedly unfamiliar with. Billy Ross has laid out these facts to prove that I have in fact made assumptions. You on the other hand are simply saying, " I know what I'm talking about and you don't." This is an online forum full of strangers. I'm not going to assume you know what you're talking about because you say you do. Lay out some stats. Right now you're just playing up the decades old archetype of the blind union support that the rest of us can't stand. If you want to make a case for you union, make one. The days when the unions could operate as secret societies that illegally and unofficially ran the city are over.

[Beer is good]

You're making assumptions. The Master Plumbers were uncomfortable changing the plumbing code for the tallest building in the state. The code was already changed for the convention center Mariott and you can't just go changing a code every time someone wants to build a big building 'their way'. The code exists for a reason, and it applies to everyone, not just little people who don't have influence. The code should be changed over tine, as technologies prove themselves. In the end the compromise that was worked out at the Comcast Center was a good compromise.

You aren't in the construction industry, and you haven't had to deal with the fallout from poorly thought out deviations from standards. I'm sure you've heard of formaldehyde in Chinese drywall. Every five years or so there is a huge scandal about moronic new methods that don't work out as planned. I gave you one. I'll give you more. Orangeburg. Aluminum wiring. CPVC. Asbestos. Tin coated steel. Plastic water mains. Installing pressure regulators inside houses. Heaters without rollout switches. Boilers without Hartford Loops. The list goes on. Urine is one of the more caustic things you'll ever deal with. You should see what it does to even thick wall (K) copper.

Well spoken

[OffenseTaken]

So, it has nothing to do with preserving union jobs??!! Isn't it strange and curious that pvc pipe has been used underground throughout most of the US without problems for quite some years now, with the exceptions od the strongholds of the building trades--Chicago and Phila. Nothing to do with the fact that pvc is a lot easier and quicker to lay than cast iron, of course, the unions are just being very protective of our welfare! Thank God we have them to look out for us.

Suppose you were scheduled to have surgery, and you told the surgeon that to cut down on expenses, you wanted to use some anaesthetic that you bought in Tijuana last year. You even offer to waive him in writing of legal responsibility, should the anaesthetic have dangerous side effects. No one would question the surgeon's good faith when he still refuses to allow it, even though he does stand to gain financially when the hospital's marked-up drugs are used instead.

I don't see why it's necessarily any different with steamfitters or plumbers. There's no need to be so cynical when they resist being manhandled into doing what they think is shoddy work: maybe they really do take that much pride in what they do. Just because they're not graduates of professional schools doesn't mean they can only concerned with their next paycheck. Not that this excuses the *******s protesting at the Goldtex site; that's a separate issue from the one raised here.

(This is getting a bit OT, but if the plumbers' union really were acting completely out of self-interest, they would have welcomed PVC piping long ago. That **** doesn't last long.)

[eldondre]

Suppose you were scheduled to have surgery, and you told the surgeon that to cut down on expenses, you wanted to use some anaesthetic that you bought in Tijuana last year. You even offer to waive him in writing of legal responsibility, should the anaesthetic have dangerous side effects. No one would question the surgeon's good faith when he still refuses to allow it, even though he does stand to gain financially when the hospital's marked-up drugs are used instead.

I don't see why it's necessarily any different with steamfitters or plumbers. There's no need to be so cynical when they resist being manhandled into doing what they think is shoddy work: maybe they really do take that much pride in what they do. Just because they're not graduates of professional schools doesn't mean they can only concerned with their next paycheck. Not that this excuses the *******s protesting at the Goldtex site; that's a separate issue from the one raised here.

(This is getting a bit OT, but if the plumbers' union really were acting completely out of self-interest, they would have welcomed PVC piping long ago. That **** doesn't last long.)

too bad your example has nothingto do with the issue at hand. I applaud Billy's willingness to defend excess profits at his plumbing business but I don't think anyone but union shills believe that. Cast iron is of course all about jobs since many more hours are needed. Perhaps if the so called workers were willing to take a stand against the outright theft by union bosses to keep their political clout they might have a leg to stand on. As it is either we beleive only Philly plumbers care about quality or they're full of crap. It has little to do with degrees it any of that class BS.

[Beer is good]

Can you please give me a example of outright theft by a union boss

[billy ross]

too bad your example has nothingto do with the issue at hand. I applaud Billy's willingness to defend excess profits at his plumbing business but I don't think anyone but union shills believe that. Cast iron is of course all about jobs since many more hours are needed. Perhaps if the so called workers were willing to take a stand against the outright theft by union bosses to keep their political clout they might have a leg to stand on. As it is either we beleive only Philly plumbers care about quality or they're full of crap. It has little to do with degrees it any of that class BS.

That's why I ran cast iron exclusively in my home? Three separate stacks and one soil line under a slab? I didn't want rats chewing through PVC under my slab with radiant heat and a ribboned cork floor with love knots and a herringbone field that we installed. I didn't want to hear toilets flushing or showers draining. I could have saved a lot of money, but I wanted high quality, not a trailer home.

Plumbers in Philly have made mobile homes illegal in Philly. When the FU Center was being built, they needed a dock for their mobile homes for the touring acts. We set it up so they couldn't foul our plumbing systems with their crappy plumbing on those things. Philly had a robust plumbing code when the rest of the state was living in tin shacks. Note how new most of the buildings in the state are compared to Philly - they don't think quality like we do, so they wasted their old, poorly-built buildings and built new, poorly-built buildings. We are the place that came up with the idea of plentiful piped water that can be safely drinken without a second's thought. Where do you come up with your cynical conspiracy theories? We protect the health of the nation, and Philly has led the way since the beginning.

Remember that crazy fire in Conshy a few years ago on a new construction site along the river? Wouldn't happen in Philly. Why? First, we don't build huge hotels and huge apartment complexes in Philly out of wood. DUMB. Second, we would have first ensured adequate water mains for fire suppression of large buildings. I was horrified to hear this past weekend that Episcopal Academy's fancy new campus in Newtown Square is built from wood. That's hard to believe. We haven't built schools out of wood in Philly in generations. We respect Murphy's Law in Philly too much. It really bothers me that you think our strict codes = featherbedding. They don't.

[Beer is good]

Once again, well spoken my friend

[Beer is good]

I also love how people who have no idea, or have never worked a day in any trade are now mechanical engineers .

[raider.adam]

Suppose you were scheduled to have surgery, and you told the surgeon that to cut down on expenses, you wanted to use some anaesthetic that you bought in Tijuana last year. You even offer to waive him in writing of legal responsibility, should the anaesthetic have dangerous side effects. No one would question the surgeon's good faith when he still refuses to allow it, even though he does stand to gain financially when the hospital's marked-up drugs are used instead.

I don't see why it's necessarily any different with steamfitters or plumbers. There's no need to be so cynical when they resist being manhandled into doing what they think is shoddy work: maybe they really do take that much pride in what they do. Just because they're not graduates of professional schools doesn't mean they can only concerned with their next paycheck. Not that this excuses the *******s protesting at the Goldtex site; that's a separate issue from the one raised here.

(This is getting a bit OT, but if the plumbers' union really were acting completely out of self-interest, they would have welcomed PVC piping long ago. That **** doesn't last long.)

I assume the difference is that when you are manhandled into using that labor, it exacerbates the problem when that labor then manhandles what your engineers want to do.

I also love how people who have no idea, or have never worked a day in any trade are now mechanical engineers .

Well, "the trades" aren't mechanical engineers either. (And for a disclaimer, I was a tool machinist for my first career.)