Families want school choice and unfortunately the people in charge are holding them back

[raider.adam]

Two interesting articles for today.

Overall, about 70 percent of district [Philadelphia] eighth graders apply for admission to a school other than their local high school but only 45 percent of them end up attending the special schools.

Study: Phila. school choice often no choice at all | Philadelphia Inquirer | 02/03/2010

The latest evidence of the administration washing its hands of the D.C. Opportunity Scholarship program is seen in the 2011 budget proposal it unveiled this week. It targets $9 million for the program but specifies that this will be "the final request" for federal funding.

washingtonpost.com

So, contrary to desolate's claim, here is a program specifically targeted to low income families (and predominantly minority) to give them better access to education options and the new President and Congress has been doing what they can to kill it. In case some don't recall, initially Obama tried to end the program right away, but all the african american families in the program raised an uproar. So now they have gone with a phase out approach.

One of the best things government and school districts can do is not force people into failing schools. They need to listen to the parents and not Labor.

[Garret]

So 31.5% (which is 45% of 70%) apply to their non-local school, and get in there. That is almost 1/3 of the eighth-graders in the entire district, which I would have thought is pretty good in terms of providing choice.

The problem seems to be the monstrous demand. I'd love to see the numbers broken down in terms of which neighborhood schools generated how many application for which charters/magnets. With that kind of demand, it seems like there must be some neighborhood schools where there are enough motivated students and parents to improve the school instead of high-tailing it out of there. The article did mention that the neighborhood schools tend to be larger than the charters/magnets, which might be the undoing of that theory.

[OldMama]

The numbers, as garrett points out, are not terrible. There are several factors at work here. First, for magnet schools, the grades and PSSA scores must be high, the behavior grades must be satisfactory, and attendance must be excellent. That eliminates any number of applicants whose parents insist that the school send their child's application to Central when the students do not begin to meet the written admission requirements. So, yes, those kids get rejected but they never met the criteria anyway. Second, the city-wide admission schools also have minimum requirements, not as high as the magnets, but include criteria such as satisfactory behavior and attendance. Again, parents insist that we send their kids' applications when the minimum requirements are not met. Then they raise a ruckus when their children have to go to the neighborhood high school. Do the elementary schools stress the importance of grades, behavior, and attendance in high school admissions- you bet. From an early age. But so many families do not listen then freak out when the rejections come in.

There are two groups for whom I feel sympathy. The first are children with special needs. Their options can be very limited depending on their disability. The second group are the kids who do not get in anywhere despite meeting criteria. I'd like to know what those numbers are because those are the ones who are not getting what they deserve from school choice.

Just keep in mind that the figures reported in the Inquirer include all the students who are capable of doing the work, behaving acceptably, and getting their butts to school on time on a regular basis BUT CHOOSE NOT TO. No amount of "school choice" is going to solve that problem.

[raider.adam]

The numbers, as garrett points out, are not terrible. There are several factors at work here. First, for magnet schools, the grades and PSSA scores must be high, the behavior grades must be satisfactory, and attendance must be excellent. That eliminates any number of applicants whose parents insist that the school send their child's application to Central when the students do not begin to meet the written admission requirements. So, yes, those kids get rejected but they never met the criteria anyway. Second, the city-wide admission schools also have minimum requirements, not as high as the magnets, but include criteria such as satisfactory behavior and attendance. Again, parents insist that we send their kids' applications when the minimum requirements are not met. Then they raise a ruckus when their children have to go to the neighborhood high school. Do the elementary schools stress the importance of grades, behavior, and attendance in high school admissions- you bet. From an early age. But so many families do not listen then freak out when the rejections come in.

There are two groups for whom I feel sympathy. The first are children with special needs. Their options can be very limited depending on their disability. The second group are the kids who do not get in anywhere despite meeting criteria. I'd like to know what those numbers are because those are the ones who are not getting what they deserve from school choice.

What is important about the numbers is the amount of people that have a desire to go somewhere else other than their local school.

The "holding back" comment was in reference to the second article about the Congress and White House eliminating school choice options in D.C.

Just keep in mind that the figures reported in the Inquirer include all the students who are capable of doing the work, behaving acceptably, and getting their butts to school on time on a regular basis BUT CHOOSE NOT TO. No amount of "school choice" is going to solve that problem.

Not sure what the relevance is.

[ShoshTrvls]

Not sure what the relevance is.

The relevance is pretty obvious: if you don't put in the effort in elementary school, then you won't have the choice when you get to middle and/or high school. If you DO put in the effort in elementary school, then you have choices and options and are quite likely to be able to exercise them.

It's like saying, "Hey, my kid didn't get accepted to Harvard, Yale or Princeton, the three colleges he applied to, and is now forced to attend the local community college. Granted, he got D's in high school, participated in no extra-curricular activities, missed half his classes, and was suspended 3 times, but still, we've been DENIED OUR CHOICE OF COLLEGES! I'm OUTRAGED!"

[kotter]

Two interesting articles for today.


Study: Phila. school choice often no choice at all | Philadelphia Inquirer | 02/03/2010



washingtonpost.com

So, contrary to desolate's claim, here is a program specifically targeted to low income families (and predominantly minority) to give them better access to education options and the new President and Congress has been doing what they can to kill it. In case some don't recall, initially Obama tried to end the program right away, but all the african american families in the program raised an uproar. So now they have gone with a phase out approach.

One of the best things government and school districts can do is not force people into failing schools. They need to listen to the parents and not Labor.

F- them. School choice has ruined Philadelphia schools. School choice gives the hoodrats that ruined their own neighborhoods an opportunity to ruin other neighborhoods. Students should go the the schools in their own neighborhood. If they don't like the school in that neighborhood then the parents have a CHOICE to move to a different neighborhood. They also have a CHOICE to pay to send their kids to a private school.


Back in the day before the BS school choice crap, Philly had good public schools.


If we did away with school choice I think we could automatically improve at least 10 high schools in the city. The schools in Chestnut Hill, East Falls, Northeast, Center City, and parts of S. Philly would improve instantly. The local residents would once again be able to send their kids to public school.

[kotter]

What is important about the numbers is the amount of people that have a desire to go somewhere else other than their local school.

The "holding back" comment was in reference to the second article about the Congress and White House eliminating school choice options in D.C.

Just keep in mind that the figures reported in the Inquirer include all the students who are capable of doing the work, behaving acceptably, and getting their to school on time on a regular basis BUT CHOOSE NOT TO. No amount of "school choice" is going to solve that problem.

Not sure what the relevance is.

The relevance is the problem is not the schools. The problem is the students.


What happens when you take a bunch of problem students and put them in a new school? Answer: They destroy another school.

[kotter]

The relevance is pretty obvious: if you don't put in the effort in elementary school, then you won't have the choice when you get to middle and/or high school. If you DO put in the effort in elementary school, then you have choices and options and are quite likely to be able to exercise them.

!"

What happens to the good schools where all the kids put in the time and effort and then a bunch of punks from a bad school transfer into the good school?

The end result is all the schools end up being bad schools.

List 5 neighborhoods in Philly where kids can go K-12 without any problems.

[OldMama]

Yes, Shosh, that is the relevance. I've personally seen parents come to school outraged that their child didn't get into, say, Saul High school, for example. For years they refused to believe that 3's in behavior, suspensions, and 35 yearly absences would affect the high school prospects. That's not a failure of school choice.

Again, I feel for the kids who do make the grade and don't get in anywhere. I'd like those numbers sorted out from the numbers that include the do-nothings. That would be a better indicator of how well school choice is faring.

And, of course, we MUST do something, anything to improve the comprehensive high schools.

[raider.adam]

The relevance is pretty obvious: if you don't put in the effort in elementary school, then you won't have the choice when you get to middle and/or high school. If you DO put in the effort in elementary school, then you have choices and options and are quite likely to be able to exercise them.

It's like saying, "Hey, my kid didn't get accepted to Harvard, Yale or Princeton, the three colleges he applied to, and is now forced to attend the local community college. Granted, he got D's in high school, participated in no extra-curricular activities, missed half his classes, and was suspended 3 times, but still, we've been DENIED OUR CHOICE OF COLLEGES! I'm OUTRAGED!"

Again, I am not talking about the 30% that didn't get to transfer, I am talking about the 70% that do want to and the 40% that thought there was a school better for them than their local one.

In regards to holding back, I am talking about places like D.C. where they are actively removing school choices.

[ShoshTrvls]

Again, I am not talking about the 30% that didn't get to transfer, I am talking about the 70% that do want to and the 40% that thought there was a school better for them than their local one.

In regards to holding back, I am talking about places like D.C. where they are actively removing school choices.

You're still missing what we're saying.

The 70% who wanted to transfer -- why weren't they able to? Was it only because there was no room at their choice inn, or was it because they didn't qualify to get into their choice inn. The example I gave above was someone who *wanted* to go somewhere other than CC, but didn't get into anywhere else -- because he didn't qualify. As OldMama asked, how many of those 70% QUALIFIED to go to one of the schools they applied to, but didn't get in b/c it was full?

And, on top of that, how many schools did they apply to? That is, I applied for my daughter to go to Masterman, only. Had she not gotten in there, I would have sent her to our local school (Meredith). Would that have made me part of the 70%? Even though she may have gotten into GAMP, but we didn't apply there?

[raider.adam]

You're still missing what we're saying.

The 70% who wanted to transfer -- why weren't they able to? Was it only because there was no room at their choice inn, or was it because they didn't qualify to get into their choice inn. The example I gave above was someone who *wanted* to go somewhere other than CC, but didn't get into anywhere else -- because he didn't qualify. As OldMama asked, how many of those 70% QUALIFIED to go to one of the schools they applied to, but didn't get in b/c it was full?

I wasn't analyzing why 55% (of the 70% that applied) didn't transfer. There was no data supplied for that. If as you say it is because the options were full, wouldn't that imply Philadelphia should open up school choice options more?

And, on top of that, how many schools did they apply to? That is, I applied for my daughter to go to Masterman, only. Had she not gotten in there, I would have sent her to our local school (Meredith). Would that have made me part of the 70%? Even though she may have gotten into GAMP, but we didn't apply there?

Yes it would have made you part of the 70% (70% is the people that applied to transfer ... 55% of them ended up in their local schools ... 45% of them didn't attend their local school). You are a parent that wants to exercise the ability to send your child to a school better than the local one. Why shouldn't we direct the system to give those options to more parents and students?

[ShoshTrvls]

I wasn't analyzing why 55% (of the 70% that applied) didn't transfer. There was no data supplied for that. If as you say it is because the options were full, wouldn't that imply Philadelphia should open up school choice options more?

I'm implying the opposite -- that possibly a large portion of that 55% didn't get into any other school not because those schools were full, but because they didn't qualify to get it.

Yes it would have made you part of the 70% (70% is the people that applied to transfer ... 55% of them ended up in their local schools ... 45% of them didn't attend their local school). You are a parent that wants to exercise the ability to send your child to a school better than the local one. Why shouldn't we direct the system to give those options to more parents and students?

No parent or child is being denied the option. Anyone can apply to transfer schools. But not everyone can get into a school they applied to -- again, not because the school is full, but because they didn't make the academic cut. Period.

If all schools were open to all students with no qualifications required, then Masterman would have the same mix of students as my local school (meaning well-behaved/not well-behaved; studious/not studious; punctual/not punctual; etc.) so there would be absolutely no reason for me NOT to choose my local school.

[knwmn]

I once had an eighth grade student who was 75 pounds overweight and had one leg significantly longer than the other. (I had surgery for this at about this kids age). He was convinced he was going to be a star in the NBA despite the fact he could not even make our school's team.
Many kids despite their test scores, behavior record, and attendance rate apply to our best magnet schools. They seem surprised they don't get in. Too often though, instead of a wake up call, its a good-bye letter.
We need to do better and we can.

[raider.adam]

I'm implying the opposite -- that possibly a large portion of that 55% didn't get into any other school not because those schools were full, but because they didn't qualify to get it.

No parent or child is being denied the option. Anyone can apply to transfer schools. But not everyone can get into a school they applied to -- again, not because the school is full, but because they didn't make the academic cut. Period.

If all schools were open to all students with no qualifications required, then Masterman would have the same mix of students as my local school (meaning well-behaved/not well-behaved; studious/not studious; punctual/not punctual; etc.) so there would be absolutely no reason for me NOT to choose my local school.

The school district does control where kids can go. As you said, some reasons may be because other charters are full. Well, more charter's can't be opened unless the school district allows it. There isn't any good reason to allow private schools into the process. Cardinal Dougherty, for example, is closing because they don't have enough students. Apparently there is capacity there, let them get into the mix.

I am not saying to open the doors and lower the criteria on public magnet schools. I am perfectly fine with people being allowed to achieve higher based on merit.

What I am trying to point out is that there is apparently an extremely large majority of families that find it perfectly acceptable to be able to exercise school choice options. Why not expand it to outside of what the school district can control?

I once had an eighth grade student who was 75 pounds overweight and had one leg significantly longer than the other. (I had surgery for this at about this kids age). He was convinced he was going to be a star in the NBA despite the fact he could not even make our school's team.
Many kids despite their test scores, behavior record, and attendance rate apply to our best magnet schools. They seem surprised they don't get in. Too often though, instead of a wake up call, its a good-bye letter.
We need to do better and we can.

The important question is how many people apply to other schools simply because they don't want to go to their local one? For anecdotal, a lady I work with sends her son to a charter. She said she doesn't think the academics are really that much better than South Philly High, but she is happy knowing it is at least safer.

Not all parents and students are aiming for the top ring. Many just want better than what they have offered to them now.

[ShoshTrvls]

T
What I am trying to point out is that there is apparently an extremely large majority of families that find it perfectly acceptable to be able to exercise school choice options. Why not expand it to outside of what the school district can control?

No one is stopping someone from applying to Cardinal Dougherty, are they? I think not.

What you want is for the public school district to pay the Catholic Church to educate someone who chooses to go there. That's a completely different story. It's arguing for vouchers, and the discussion of that is far more complicated than simply, "just let people choose."

[raider.adam]

No one is stopping someone from applying to Cardinal Dougherty, are they? I think not.

What you want is for the public school district to pay the Catholic Church to educate someone who chooses to go there. That's a completely different story. It's arguing for vouchers, and the discussion of that is far more complicated than simply, "just let people choose."

Yes I am advocating for school choice through vouchers. That was the second article I posted in the thread start. I wasn't hiding what I was talking about at all.

[billy ross]

F- them. School choice has ruined Philadelphia schools. School choice gives the hoodrats that ruined their own neighborhoods an opportunity to ruin other neighborhoods. Students should go the the schools in their own neighborhood. If they don't like the school in that neighborhood then the parents have a CHOICE to move to a different neighborhood. They also have a CHOICE to pay to send their kids to a private school.


Back in the day before the BS school choice crap, Philly had good public schools.


If we did away with school choice I think we could automatically improve at least 10 high schools in the city. The schools in Chestnut Hill, East Falls, Northeast, Center City, and parts of S. Philly would improve instantly. The local residents would once again be able to send their kids to public school.

There is no public high school in Chestnut Hill, and the only public high school in East Falls is a vo-tech school (Randolph).

I suspect that your rant is really meant against bussing, and thankfully bussing has been eliminated in Philly.

[n4100]

There is no public high school in Chestnut Hill, and the only public high school in East Falls is a vo-tech school (Randolph).

I suspect that your rant is really meant against bussing, and thankfully bussing has been eliminated in Philly.

Forced bussing has BUT "neighborhood schools" like NE, Lincoln, and Washington have many, MANY people who go there who can/do go there because. "those living outside of the feeder pattern may also apply, but admission is based on available space and determined through a lottery." Since a number of parents in the NE choose to send their kids to private schools or gain admission to magnets or charters that frees up lots of space in those schools where students from outside the area are then admitted. Just check to see how many kids get off the 18 at 5 Points headed towards NE or Washington who aren't in the catchment zone.

[CapnMarko]

No parent or child is being denied the option. Anyone can apply to transfer schools. But not everyone can get into a school they applied to -- again, not because the school is full, but because they didn't make the academic cut. Period.

If all schools were open to all students with no qualifications required, then Masterman would have the same mix of students as my local school (meaning well-behaved/not well-behaved; studious/not studious; punctual/not punctual; etc.) so there would be absolutely no reason for me NOT to choose my local school.

What about Kindergarten how exactly should those kids be screened to make the 'academic cut'? We've applied to Meredith, McCall, Greenfield, (already found out we are 246 on the waiting list for Independence), Christopher Columbus, and I'm pretty sure a few more charters because I don't feel that our local school George Washington School is a safe or educational environment. I would love to find out differently but on numerous occasions of contacting the school we were told there are no tours and we cannot observe a class.

If it comes to having to pay for private/parochial school in addition to my commuting costs and wage taxes then it is most likely a more fiscally sound option for us to move to Northern New Jersey which we don't really want to do ...

The Public School System as it currently stands does not work in the majority of cases. What is our current ranking in the world in regards to math and science or even reading comprehension? We have been moving the deck chairs around for quite some time and the iceberg keeps looming. I think that vouchers may be a way to incentivize public schools to actually start performing.

There are many fine public schools but are they available to ALL of those who would meet the academic cut?