Is Green Woods Charter a public school?

[CV's mum]

More on the lack of transparency of the lottery process at GW: this year's application had an essay question to be filled out by parents. Would the parent/caregiver's answer to this question (and the spelling or thoughtfulness of it) determine if the child qualifies for the lottery? When SPD recognizes that there are admissions issues, yet doesn't challenge them (there aren't that many siblings!), it gives the green light to other charters to use the same strategies to restrict admissions to those populations most likely to score high on standardize testing, regardless of a specialized curriculum or not.

[seand]

That does sound highly suspect. What was the question? Has it been documented anywhere online or in the media?

The last time I applied for a City of Philadelphia job the scoring on the standardized test they gave you seemed to play a pretty big roll in selection for the job. It is possible that standardized tests do also actually measure aptitudes and skills to some extent, even if poor kids do badly. It could accurately be measuring that those kids come into the system with a disadvantage from the get go, for example, so trashing on testing incessently could conceivably be helping to reinforce inequality over the long haul. I'm sure the truth is far more subtle than that but I really tire of the "all testing is bad" mantra.

[Dolemite]

More on the lack of transparency of the lottery process at GW: this year's application had an essay question to be filled out by parents.

Well that sounds like a bunch of BS. What could possibly be a legitimate purpose of that?

[macdaire]

I think when I applied to Russel Byers there was an open ended question in the application addressing why I wanted my child there.

[seand]

I think when I applied to Russel Byers there was an open ended question in the application addressing why I wanted my child there.

So they were selecting for parents who were committed to the school, not for whether the parent was a college grad. Either way it would skew up test results, skew towards more middle class parents. But under one scenario the working class parent who really, really wants it does have a chance for the proverbial "escape hatch".

[gren]

Where do you find a specific school's index? Who makes the index, the SRC?

School Performance Index (SPI) - The School District of Philadelphia

If you want the direct link to the District's site.

Well that sounds like a bunch of BS. What could possibly be a legitimate purpose of that?

It seems like Greenwoods is trying to act like a special select school and choose its students to the extent it can. The benefits are clear, if you have wealthier offspring from well-educated parents it takes a lot less effort to teach them since they're starting off at a higher level in the aggregate. People say they're sending their kids to a "better school" when they put them in private schools but generally the biggest benefit is putting their kids in a school with similarly educated children so their child won't be held back by the level of the class. It's not that private schools don't want racial and income diversity. They often create scholarships so that poor, minority children who excel academic can attend. What they don't want is children significantly behind academically even by the age of kindergarten to hold back their classes. Personally, I think there should be more tiers of special select schools to solve this problem rather than giving charters the incentive to find the best students academically through whatever means they can which will most likely correlate with income and to a lesser extent race.

[CV's mum]

I don't know if it is documented anywhere in the media, but should be and is another reason why the apps should be on the school's website for all to see. I saw it at a friend's house 2-3 months ago, while I got the blow-by-blow story on her process of finding a school for her child. I saw 4 apps that day, and one other also had an essay--I don't recall the school, only that they ultimately chose not to apply to it. In the GW case, she was very proud of her response (having to do with the school's mission, if memory serves me), and didn't think it was a coincidence that her child was selected in the lottery. . .

My reference to testing was not intended to be pro-or-con, but rather they had found a way to circumvent the system that gone unchecked, serves as a model for other charters.

[macdaire]

http://www.byerschool.org/enrollment...cation2011.pdf


However, let us keep in mind, if it is a publically attended lottery the essay is moot.

[seand]

I know every body uses the term "lottery" but its my understanding at no school is the process truly random nubers out of bag but more of a de facto selection process with a mix of criteria.

[Dolemite]

I know every body uses the term "lottery" but its my understanding at no school is the process truly random nubers out of bag but more of a de facto selection process with a mix of criteria.

I don't think you are correct.

[gren]

http://www.byerschool.org/enrollment...cation2011.pdf


However, let us keep in mind, if it is a publically attended lottery the essay is moot.

Maybe. I didn't apply to a number of colleges that had onerous applications. Can they throw out an application with incomplete essays? Etc.

[seand]

I don't think you are correct.

So does everyone get a number and they go down the list till the school is full? Do you know your number?

[annie]

So does everyone get a number and they go down the list till the school is full? Do you know your number?

Some schools do rolling admissions. Some have an actual lottery.

Philly School Match | Online School Admissions Guide
Philadelphia School Search: Winning the Lottery: Independence Charter School | Philly School Search

[seand]

Thanks. There are as many policies as schools basically.

And the feeling about schools that have interviews as part of the process, are those all inherently exclusionary?

[Dolemite]

And the feeling about schools that have interviews as part of the process, are those all inherently exclusionary?

Well Christopher Columbus is listed as a school with an interview so maybe Dr. G could enlighten us if he happens upon this thread.

[billy ross]

But if you are a good school i.e. with a unique educational environment and curriculum, students with more vocabularies etc. self-select. There is also a bit of criticizing them for that as well. If you are saying that there shouldn't be environmentally-themed schools in "woods" envirnoments or that they should top the list for audits because they have a program that more middle class people seek out, you are in fact punishing them for being a "good school" rather than saying that there should be more and more varied "good school" opportunities for everyone.

Its a chicken and egg and if the policy you are calling for is putting the "good chickens" out of business that just means nobody gets to taste it all.

I know you're a lefty, but you're a 'good' lefty, or at least one who is intellectually rigorous. The lefties who think that it's unfair that some schools should be better than others and that the solution is to tear down the good schools (as opposed to tearing down the bad schools) drive me absolutely nuts. I see it over and over and over again, even in 'elite' places like Lower Merion and Cherry Hill. It is exactly the kind of stupidity that led to white flight, and that has caused the German university system to drop precipitously from its former heights. People want quality. If you try to deny them quality, they will find other options (like the American university system, for instance). When you have a system full of failing schools, successful schools need to be duplicated and expanded, not hobbled. Thank God that the School Board in Philly is on board with the program, at least.

[gren]

I know you're a lefty, but you're a 'good' lefty, or at least one who is intellectually rigorous. The lefties who think that it's unfair that some schools should be better than others and that the solution is to tear down the good schools (as opposed to tearing down the bad schools) drive me absolutely nuts. I see it over and over and over again, even in 'elite' places like Lower Merion and Cherry Hill. It is exactly the kind of stupidity that led to white flight. People want quality. If you try to deny them quality, they will find other options. When you have a system full of failing schools, successful schools need to be duplicated, not hobbled.

If we're using Greenwoods as the example here then I think we're conflating "good school" and "school who has managed to pick good students", right? I'm not saying to tear down Greenwoods, it seems like a fine place, but let's not attribute its success solely to its teaching. We need to implement strategies that acknowledge that it's harder to bring poor students from poorly educated households up to grade level whereas it's not particularly hard to bring middle class kids to the relatively low standards of the state.

My problem with the school reform as currently constructed is that it doesn't have a plan for teaching low performing students. Their plan is just to close schools full of low performing students and hope the school was the reason the student wasn't performing.

[annie]

Thank God that the School Board in Philly is on board with the program, at least.

You realize they approved the Great Schools Compact which currently has a component requiring a uniform charter application process that would knock off most of the crap we're complaining about? Or are the TPTB only wise when they're going your way?

[seand]

If we're using Greenwoods as the example here then I think we're conflating "good school" and "school who has managed to pick good students", right?

Even at the very low by Philly standards 17% "economically disadvantaged", is it fair to deny those 17% the chance at the experience? It just seems counterintuitive to say its not really "public" i.e. not deserving of funding.

I hear the criticism of the application process and whether its fair but a) surely middle class students deserve choices too and b) every single student of that 17% is a real opportunity for the student, right?

If a lot of people want into a school, its fair to ask if the way they are making the cut gives everybody a fair chance but surely the main takeaway is that more of those sought after models should be available, not less.

[seand]

My problem with the school reform as currently constructed is that it doesn't have a plan for teaching low performing students. Their plan is just to close schools full of low performing students and hope the school was the reason the student wasn't performing.

Which is why I'm so mean to the "testing only shows whether a student is middle class or not" slag on testing. If you are going to make an argument that "guess what it really does take a minimum of resources to bring low performing students with XYZ social impediments up to speed", the only way anyone is going to make that point successfully resonate politically is with quantifiable measurements.

And being willing to drive out to the woods for a one time trip during school hours does encourage committed parents with cars, the set of people who can make that trip does not automatically exclude "economically disadvantaged".

Basically a unified process would be fairer and more transparent to everyone. I'm sure the biggest deciding factor for most Philly parents for any school is knowing someone else who has actually gone to X school because there are so many schools with so many policies. Word of mouth is not 100% exclusionary but its definitely not the best way to get the word out so everyone has an equal chance to hear about the more unique offerings. There are probably a million social science studies one could do on how class/race/whatever plays into how parents even hear about school options.